The textures of textiles

Host Gianofer Fields visits a Wisconsin Historical Society archive with artisans from Quarra Stone to research the kinds of garments that would have been worn by Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln.

Meet Me at the Chazen is a podcast about the the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Chazen Museum of Art, the largest collecting museum in the Big Ten. As we report what’s happening here, we'll also explore what it means to be an art museum at a public university and how art museums can help enrich and strengthen the communities they serve. Meet Me at the Chazen theme and incidental music is “Swinging at the Pluto Lounge,” composed and performed by Marvin Tate and friends, and is used with permission of the artists.

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Transcript

Tamara Funk  00:01
 Several of the fun things I've done in my life was, I worked for the National Park Service in Washington DC at their storage facility there. And while I was there, I was able to store many of Frederick Douglass garments. It's 30 years ago now, no, it's more than 30 years ago. I've been here almost 30 years. And I've been kicking myself because I wish I knew that I was going to need to know this in 30 years. And I did try to contact my colleagues back there. But there's been some upheaval in the facility there so they weren't able to help me much. Even just to have gotten a catalogue of which things I had stored away, in case it would help any of you but many of his shirts and many of his mate shirts and those sorts of things were what I was working with there.
 
 Gianofer Fields  00:58
 Meet Me at the Chazen. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. We've been talking a lot about Thomas Ball's Emancipation Group sculpture as the catalyst for the re:mancipation project. However, it is no longer the sculpture at the center of our discussions. On May 4, artist Sanford Biggers's response entitled Lifting the Veil made its debut in the Rowland Gallery at the Chazen Museum of Art. The sculpture features a standing Frederick Douglass holding the scales of justice in his left hand. In his right, Douglas holds a quilt over a seated barefoot Lincoln as he gazes downward reading the Emancipation Proclamation. Designed by Biggers, the marble sculpture was carved by a team of sculptors led by Martin Foote at the Quarra Stone Company in Madison, Wisconsin.

Frederick Douglass was the most photographed man that during his time, and while his hair was his most distinguished feature, his garments also told his story. But how do you turn fabric into stone? The first step is understanding the clothing worn in the 1860s. And to do that, you've got to get close and take a good look. That required a field trip to the Wisconsin State Historical Society. Curator Tamara Funk made the dreams of the Quarra Stone sculptors, fabricators, and fellow textile junkies come true.

Tamara Funk  02:18
 I'll give you some quick background on how I chose the objects, because we have a few things from the 1860s. So I got an Interlibrary Loan, this work on photographs of Frederick Douglas, and Sarah bought one for you folks as well. You have it okay. One of the things that I noticed as I studied these was that Frederick Douglass, right in the '60s, is wearing a very different kind of vest than he wears earlier. Although he keeps wearing it some into his later years, but it's, it's somewhat atypical. So I've brought down a vest that was sort of typical 1860s. But I've also brought down the closest thing in cut, it's not exact, but the closest thing in cut to the vest that Douglas is wearing in the 1860s that we had in our collection. And interestingly enough, that piece was sort of a paramilitary piece. Yeah. So I have a whole new area of research, I think I want to go into now, which was, why was Douglass wearing this at that time? He has to be saying something. And I mean, that's how we clothing historians look at clothing. It's not just oh, I got up and threw things on, generally, when that initial purchases made, there is thought going into it. So throwing it out there for anyone who needs a master's thesis. Why is Frederick Douglass wearing this slightly alternate vests during that period of the 1860s? Okay, cool thought to leave you with.
 
 Now we'll get down to the clothing. Did I hear that we were first for the coat? I think we should, okay. This coat is dated broadly 1860 to 1869. Which what that means in terms of the museum setting is that whoever brought it in was probably a later family member and didn't know the exact storyline on it, but that we've dated it based on its parts it how it looks hid style, that sort of thing. I was particularly pleased with this choice, because there is an 1850 or so picture of Douglass wearing a velvet collared frock coat like this. So could we say, yes, if you can turn off your flash, and also, those of you who are going to need to be actually working, come on up and stand around the table. We can, well, I can't let you touch, I can have you as close as humanly possible. And I'm just going to let you sort of look at the front plane. And then when you feel like you've looked at that enough, I'm going to open it up. And then we're going to do the same on the back.
 
 One of the things, a little textile-y note, but it might actually have an impact on you, that I want to point out to you and I talked to one of you about this, when I was out at your place, is, to take a look at. In the modern day, the lining would be joined with the edge, and it would be turned over there. In this time period, this cloth is so tightly woven and then fold that it holds on its own. So it's the raw edge that actually hangs out at the very bottom. And yet it does not look in any way raw, the way modern cloth would.
 
 Gianofer Fields  06:26
 Is this a jacket that would have been, rather than purchasing a new one, it would have been reworked? If they want it to be more modern or to change sort of like the style of the jacket. Is it one of those, it's made that, but that sort of in mind?
 
 Tamara Funk  06:39
 Um, for Lincoln and Douglas, I'm gonna say probably not. Because they're prominent men. And, and Douglas particularly is very aware of a fashion. He's his photos are fashion forward, if you will.
 
 Gianofer Fields  06:58
 So then it definitely even more proves choosing that vest would have been a definite choice as opposed to what was available.
 
 Tamara Funk  07:03
 I feel like it is, yeah. You know, in a modern man's jacket, the sleeve is straight cut. In this time period and before, there's a curve to the cut, so that it will fit more nicely. Yeah, yeah, twist. It just stand at a more normal position. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Are we ready for me to open the front flaps to take a look inside? Okay. We may want to before I do that, take a look at the buttonholes on me. It's handmade, right, I noticed. And it would have been, let me just take a quick look. The stitch they would have used would have been to go around the open hole, and then wrap the thread around the needle and push it on through so that there's a little knot. And that gives a little more strength with the knot end to the open area that gives a little more strength.
 
 Tamara Funk  08:16
 So if you want the personal reminiscences, one of the fun things I got to do while I was at that facility was that the suit that Lincoln died in, needed to be packaged up and sent off for conservation. And so I was the person who got to do that whole transport process. And one of the most amazing things of my life, it was the suit was exhibited closed for about 25 years prior to that. And when I went in and took it off of its form, I discovered that in the skirt panels, there was quilting, black on black, and it was fairly common to put quilting into clothing in that time period when they didn't have central heat, because you're cold a lot of the time. And so quilted into this tail was ribbons around the outside edge, and an eagle in the center, and in a ribbon off of the eagle's talon was another ribbon and in that was quilted,  "one country one destiny." Wow. I mean, doesn't that just make ... Yeah, it makes me shiver even at this remove in time. It was obviously made for him. And that was his outer coat.
 
 Tamara Funk  09:50
 His inner coat was a was a Brooks Brothers in fact, Oh, yeah. Brooks Brothers had been founded in the 1850s. And so you, yeah, and you folks, just let me know when you're ready to move on to the next. Yep. Okay. All right, well, now everything's downhill from there. I'm gonna go with the pants. One of the things that started happening in the 1860s is that the pants get much slouchier, let's say describe that, more droopy. So they were running in the '40s and '50s, much more fitted, and they start getting a little bit bigger in the leg, and a little more droopy, as you move through the '60s. So you're seeing a whole bunch of buttons here, you leave, you need some explanation on that. What we have happening is that this comes down, this opens up. This opens up, you get yourself in, by the way, this is flannel lined, because again, in a time period when you're not Wisconsin, but when in a time period when you're not centrally heated, you're cold all the time. So it slide your legs in, then you button up the two buttons here. And then there's your button to the row of buttons on the bottom. I'm gonna just do two as an example. You'll also notice that these buttons are not the fancy elegant buttons of the coat. These are just little stamped metal buttons. And then all of these buttons up here. Suspenders exactly, your button your suspenders to those.
 
 Gianofer Fields  09:50
 I think I would like some pants like that. I was just gonna turn to her and say ...
 
 Kirstin Pires  12:22
 You can get Yeah, you there are patterns like that there. And actually, I've seen them in catalogs where they're called sailor's pants.
 
 Tamara Funk  12:31
 Or you can order from your local Amish supply place, right, which there are lots of them that do mail order, because I've had to buy lots of these pants because as among the things I've done in my career, I costumed historic sites. So I had to have clothing for my men interpreters.
 
 Gianofer Fields  12:49
 Did you work at Colonial Williamsburg?
 
 Tamara Funk  12:51
 I didn't, but I went to college there.
 
 Gianofer Fields  12:55
 That's my next stop.
 
 Tamara Funk  12:58
 I was the curator at Pendarvis for 21 years. Yeah, so that's, that's when I had my costumed interpreters. I also wrote my master's thesis on reproduction, costuming, so strange thing.
 
 Gianofer Fields  13:12
 We're gonna become good friends.
 
 Tamara Funk  13:15
 I would like that. And then I'll just do one quick button here. So that you have a sense of how you're closing the fall there.
 
 Gianofer Fields  13:27
 Could you also use these as a way to take in the waist? Like if you're, you know, if you've shapeshifted.
 
 Tamara Funk  13:35
 Okay, so I've never seen one where that was clearly something that happened.
 
 Gianofer Fields  13:42
 Well, why would I tell you from shapeshifting? That'd be just like, out?
 
 Tamara Funk  13:45
 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Oftentimes, you might see also a little watch pocket even in pants or in the vest. Yeah, but down low in this time period. Yeah. All right. Let's turn these over. The back has really just, I think one big surprise for you.
 
 Gianofer Fields  14:21
 Maybe two. There's a shapeshifter.
 
 Tamara Funk  14:23
 there's your shapeshifter. So you're suspenders, buttoning on your adjustment of shape. And these are just much more roomy in the rump than I think you would have expected.
 
 Gianofer Fields  14:40
 Right? Now you're talking my language.
 
 Tamara Funk  14:42
 I will say though, that that shape as roomy as it is, is positively small compared to the earlier part of the century and the 18th century when it's just A balloon back there. It actually is. Yeah. For the statute, this actually isn't going to come into play because it'll be under his coat. Yeah. Okay. It gives you a sense of what all is happening around there. Yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:26
 So how close are these pants to the Amish-made pants?
 
 Tamara Funk  15:29
 Very close. Yeah. Yeah, very close.
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:35
 Look at how this scallops to, like, this nice little scallop right there.
 
 Tamara Funk  15:39
 A little bit. Yeah, it sure does. Yep. So pretty.
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:44
 It's probably going to use the wrong term, but it's very feminine. Like quality to the pant. It's like very set scalloped and soft and cut on bias. It's very, when we compare them to standard clothes, now we're everything. men seem to be straight cut, and you know, very hard-edged, it's very soft and considerate of the person wearing them as opposed to the fashion itself.
 
 Tamara Funk  16:09
 Yeah, I'm going to actually agree with you, in part. Because we're only in 1860. We're only just moving into the time period, where men have very little decorative elements in their clothing. In another setting, I once said to the people present, you know men's clothing, boring us to death since 1850. because prior to that, it was elegant silks and colors and pattern and shape. And this clothing represents the time when we're just moving into that time where men become dark-colored, wearing basic standard, everyone's alike. But they haven't yet gone all the way there because their vests are still retaining some of that older way. And I'm going to bring out not the military vest first but the other vest for you to see right now. See how you gave me a segue?
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:15
 I love giving segues, it's my middle name.
 
 Tamara Funk  17:20
 It's got pattern and weave and decoration and look at the buttons.
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:27
 Is that wood inside the button?
 
 Tamara Funk  17:29
 I believe it's embroidered, an embroidered stich.
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:33
 I'm not looking through the right part of my bifocals.
 
 Tamara Funk  17:35
 That's exactly, so I thought it would be maybe useful for you to see both kinds of vests, both the ones that are the more, that you see more in style during the 1860s as well as this other one that was my best approximation of what we see Douglas wearing in the 1860s a lot. So this one has more of a shawl collar there'd be an opening where the shirt shows out and it's more decorative. And then let's take a quick look at the back which is nowhere near as elegant because you're going on the assumption that you are in your frock coat in your suit coat and not getting out of it at least during formal situations. But the collar, you see, is the elegant cloth because it sticks up and over the frock coat a little bit. So you want it to look nice. And then again you do, this has come loose over time. You do your adjusting of shape by that set of buckles there. I'll open it to the inside so we can see that.
 
 Gianofer Fields  18:52
 How many pockets? One, two, three pockets.
 
 Tamara Funk  18:56
 Yes. You know what, we may do this a different way. I don't like the amount of strain that is going to be caused if I unbutton it. So here we have another interesting thing where they have a little layer of leather in there at the bottom like insulation. Yeah, I think that's going to give a little stability so that it it doesn't kind of crunch up at the bottom it sits nicely. Yeah, yeah. We can we give it some weight. Yes. And you'll see on this, this is not a tight woven wool. This is this is a brocaded silk so it is turned over and finished in. All right. From here let's move into the other vest.
 
 Tamara Funk  19:52
 As you look at the vest on Douglass, this is not a perfect match. That's the military. That's the military one. And when you look at the pictures in the book, that's, he's wearing these really high neck vests. And it's right over there if you want to take a look in many of his 1860s pictures. So I dug out the closest thing I could think of.
 
 Unknown  20:26
 Is that a wool?
 
 Tamara Funk  20:27
 It is. Yep. It's not as fine a wool. So this one is turned over and caught into the back.
 
 Gianofer Fields  20:36
 Look at the stuffing.
 
 Tamara Funk  20:38
 There you go. I was talking about wadding and padding.
 
 Gianofer Fields  20:49
 The high collar also has to do with just warmth.
 
 Tamara Funk  20:52
 It could, it could. Or I don't know. I mean, why, why do we design our military uniforms like we do? It's getting more towards utility, but it hasn't been for a long time. And when you think about you know the big sparkling red coats on the 18th-century battlefields, why do this?
 
 Gianofer Fields  21:17
 Like you're really not scaring us with that red.
 
 Gianofer Fields  21:27
 Can I have this?
 
 Tamara Funk  21:29
 This is actually a fun shirt in and of itself, because Cyrus McCormick wore it. McCormick Reaper?
 
 Gianofer Fields  21:40
 I would wear this as a dress.
 
 Tamara Funk  21:44
 It's very similar to a nightshirt. There's, a little comment for what I want to say about this is, it's way bigger than you expect for a shirt. It's coming from the modern times. But really, the shirt in the 18th century is the nightshirt, they are one in the same. You get up in the day and put your stuff over it and you go to bed at night wear it and you get up in the day and put your stuff over it. In the 19th century, they've moved to having more cottons and therefore more washings more ability to do washings. So, but they're still keeping to that sort of old concept of the shirt being a big cover garment. So it's great big. And now, the little bit of space in the rear of the pants makes sense, because you have to stick this all somewhere.
 
 Gianofer Fields  22:46
 So what's this little mark here?
 
 Tamara Funk  22:48
 Well, the laundry mark is over here. So I'm gonna say that's a stain.
 
 Gianofer Fields  23:00
 Oh my god, it is. It's a perfect X. Could that be rust from something like ...
 
 Tamara Funk  23:09
 It could, yeah. That's called a laundry mark. See, it's his number nine shirt. And the date when he started wearing it and whose it is. Because he's Cyrus McCormick so he can send his laundry out to a laundry woman. So you keep track of them that way.
 
 Gianofer Fields  23:31
 Which meant the laundry woman could read?
 
 Tamara Funk  23:35
 Well, not necessarily somebody at the laundry, because you did it more for tracking that you got back everything you'd brought out. So you could read, but not necessarily that the laundry woman could.
 
 Gianofer Fields  23:57
 The tailor maybe would have, who knows? Who would have written that?
 
 Tamara Funk  24:00
 Probably a servant in Cyrus McCormick's house would have labeled that and he was wealthy enough. He could have had a laundry woman in house.
 
 Gianofer Fields  24:08
 In house because he wasn't the only person in that house. But most likely not the only male right with that much money. He's got to have an heir or 17. Who knows?
 
 Tamara Funk  24:17
 And I hate to mention it but also even within the household, even within the household, you sometimes distrusted Your servants and so you would take your stuff so you knew that nothing's disappearing. Yeah. The past isn't always lovely. Let me show you the back because the yoke on this is quite interesting too.
 
 Gianofer Fields  24:44
 It reminds me of the artist's smock in the back.
 
 Tamara Funk  24:47
 Exactly. Because smocks and all of those sorts of garments also come out of that same tradition. There's agricultural smocks in the 18th century, that is just a big coarser shirt that you put on over everything so that your clothing is protected when you're doing heavy labor.
 
 Gianofer Fields  25:11
 I am bringing that back.
 
 Tamara Funk  25:15
 Isn't that that? Yeah, that's ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  25:16
 Let's make one.
 
 Tamara Funk  25:17
 And smocking, the concept of smocking, which is where you gather very close pleats and embroider on them, which is now a very decorative thing. They come from agricultural smocks. And, yeah, if you look back, you'll see smocks that have smocking and it's great fun. Just two more to go. These are pertinent to the carver. So the details.
 
 Tamara Funk  25:54
 So the thing at the neck, what we would call a necktie, but would have been called either a cravat or a stock in the time period. I tend to think of stocks as a little bit earlier prior to when they're putting the bowtie on it. And cravats is a little later but then this one's a preformed one. I could have brought down a cravat that was just the stretch of silk, but that wouldn't have helped you much.
 
 Unknown  26:29
 Is this like a snap-on tie?
 
 Tamara Funk  26:30
 It is.
 
 Gianofer Fields  26:32
 So now you don't have to be feel bad when you have to wear one.
 
 Unknown  26:36
 What's the material in there?
 
 Kirstin Pires  26:38
 Yeah what's the stiffening?
 
 Tamara Funk  26:39
 It's metal.
 
 Unknown  26:44
 Like those '90s snap-on bracelets.
 
 Tamara Funk  26:52
 So that gave a good shape and very similar to what I thought I'd seen in the picture. So that's the one I chose. It's much narrower than I would have expected. There it the wideness of the bow goes up and down over the 19th century. I think it's a little more restrained in the 1860s than it was say in the 40s. And for that one, I'd go with the images you see in the book. Because it's pretty simple. And just whatever he's going with in the '60s I think is probably best and you still have that whole decision you have to make about whether it gets swallowed up by the high neck vest or whether it's going to be visible in the open neck. I have to admit I spent  way, way more research time on that question for you than you really needed me to. But I got so fascinated! I mean, this is this is my thing! I do reproduction costuming and I really ... yeah. And essentially you guys are doing reproductive costuming
 
 Gianofer Fields  28:02
 Kirstin, shoes!
 
 Tamara Funk  28:05
 I found a pair of shoes. I had told Sarah I had not found a pair of shoes but I did.
 
 Gianofer Fields  28:15
 It doesn't seem like there's an obvious left or right, or am I just blind?
 
 Tamara Funk  28:19
 That is correct. It actually is during the Civil War that military shoes start being made on shaped lasts, and so it's after the Civil War that that becomes popular and goes to the broad population.
 
 Gianofer Fields  28:35
 So before then there was no real left or right shoe.
 
 Tamara Funk  28:38
 No yeah and in fact, you could switch them back and forth to even out the wear.
 
 Gianofer Fields  28:44
 No thank you. Nah, this can't be comfortable.
 
 Tamara Funk  28:52
 So yeah, for a civilian during the war, they're still wearing what's called straight last shoes. Because the last is the form they make them on and they're straight.
 
 Gianofer Fields  29:07
 She said you could back and forth them so you could even the wear it was even. So even then you're still just swapping them back and forth.
 
 Tamara Funk  29:22
 If your buckle is straight up at the top, you can just switch them back and forth and it doesn't matter. You know we think of buckles having to be to the correct side. Well the top is a perfectly good side if you're going to switch your shoes back and forth.
 
 Gianofer Fields  29:39
 Where there have been some lining in the shoe to prevent that from just chewing up the back of your foot?
 
 Tamara Funk  29:46
 Let's see what they have in this shoe. But there is a little bit of a lining here. Kind of a chamois-like, a suede leather I would say, compared to our view of the world, they probably aren't the most comfortable shoes. The donor of these knew very little about their history. So we are left with not a lot of story about the specific person who wore these these.
 
 Gianofer Fields  30:26
 How bizarre to have arch but not a left and a right. That would have been swell you how would you have known the difference? You wouldn't have known? Right?
 
 Tamara Funk  30:33
 You never felt anything else.
 
 Gianofer Fields  30:35
 You wouldn't have known.
 
 Tamara Funk  30:38
 The right and left shoe did catch on pretty quickly after the war. So maybe we weren't yeah, maybe that was something that was good for our feet, we all thought.
 
 Gianofer Fields  30:50
 When did the shoe become part of the fashion trend, though, for women? Was it, I've read because of tuberculosis, they thought that they were dragging in the disease on the bottom of their skirts. So when they raised the skirt up, that's when shoes became popular. What style of shoe is that? True?
 
 Tamara Funk  31:08
 I would disagree with that. Because I know of some unbelievable beautiful shoes in say 1850 made out of the same cloth as the dress and fancy patents, they're called, that you put your foot into, and it's on a metal ring to keep you up out of the crowd in the street when you're wearing your pretty shoes. And you'll walk along on these patents instead, and to in the 18th century before men's clothing gets boring. There's fantastic high-heeled men's shoes with red heels and all kinds of cool stuff. But we've sobered down by the middle of the 19th century for men.
 
 Gianofer Fields  31:51
 Too bad.
 
 Tamara Funk  31:52
 I know.
 
 Gianofer Fields  31:53
 Your loss.
 
 Unknown  31:54
 It was more fun before about what time?
 
 Tamara Funk  32:00
 About 1850 is when we really start sobering down men's clothing. Yeah, we're kind of kind of at least Europe, Europe wide. Europe and North America. Yeah.
 
 Tamara Funk  32:16
 Alrighty. I've thrown a lot at you. Any last questions?
 
 Unknown  32:23
 Great.
 Tamara Funk  32:24
 Has it served the purpose you needed it to?
 
 Unknown  32:28
 Perfect. Great. Good. Thank you. Good.
 
 Gianofer Fields  32:31
 Thank you so much.
 
 Tamara Funk  32:38
 Enjoyed it? Oh, I will live off of the high of today for several days!
 
 Unknown  32:42
 I could come back anytime.
 
 Gianofer Fields  32:48
 Let's come back together and go wooo ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  32:53
 You've been listening to Meet Me at the Chazen and our guest, Tamara Funk, is a curator at the Wisconsin Historical Society. Meet Me at the Chazen id s production of the Chazen Museum of Art on the campus of UW–Madison in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information about the museum is collected and exhibitions visit chazen.wisc.edu. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. Thank you for listening.