Camille Friend: Black hair in white marble

Oscar-nominated hair stylist Camille Friend educated the artisans at Quarra Stone on the nuances of Black hair as they finished Sanford Biggers's sculpture, Lifting the Veil, which features Frederick Douglass and his iconic mane. Host Gianofer Fields was there to capture the sights and sounds.

Meet Me at the Chazen is a podcast about the the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Chazen Museum of Art, the largest collecting museum in the Big Ten. As we report what’s happening here, we'll also explore what it means to be an art museum at a public university and how art museums can help enrich and strengthen the communities they serve. Meet Me at the Chazen theme and incidental music is “Swinging at the Pluto Lounge,” composed and performed by Marvin Tate and friends, and is used with permission of the artists.

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Transcript

 Camille Friend  00:00
 So back in the Stone Ages, you know, there was very negative connotation when you talked about Black hair. It was, I'm just gonna use the words that we don't use anymore. I'm just gonna say, these are the words we don't use anymore, you know, kinky nappy, you know, in all these other things, names that were there derogatory.
 
 Gianofer Fields  00:17
 Meet Me at the Chazen. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. Camille Friend is an Oscar nominee in hair and makeup for her work on Marvel's Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. She's also responsible for the tresses in Disney's live action Little Mermaid. Sanford Biggers’s sculpture entitled Lifting the Veil is made of marble and centers a standing Frederick Douglass, as Lincoln sits barefoot beneath him. When it came time for the fabricators and carvers at Quarra Stone to carve Douglass's hair, Friend's expertise was crucial to the success with the project. Stone carver Wenndy Sempertegui was responsible for creating a bust of Douglass used as a guide for turning Douglass's iconic mane into marble. Together, the stylist and the carver talk through shop noise and tears, to ensure the hair matched the caliber of the man.

Camille Friend  01:11
 I love working outside the box. I love thinking about things in a different way. But then I bring it into what I do. I'm a third-generation hairstylist. So it's something that is great. It's fabulous. And I love the collaboration. And it's, it's fun for me to think outside the box. Because when you're shooting, when you're shooting hair, you think about it a certain way. And actually, believe it or not, it transcends into marble also, how it's done, how you're getting 3-D, how you're getting highs and lows, you're getting contrast. Those are all the same things that they do in marble.
 
 Gianofer Fields  01:44
 So then what's your first step? What, how do you start to make that transition from in hair, natural hair, in hair, African American hair and in your hand, to something that someone else is going to create in stone? What's that conversation?
 
 02:00
 The conversation, I think it's first like what we're going to start with today is giving people the basics, giving them the tools. So showing them like what does hair texture look like? What does curl look like and be able to like show them just through their eyes, how to identify different textures. And then you can take that into what they're doing on a piece of marble. So it's then first explaining to what it is. Because if you have the, you know, if you have the knowledge in the background, then you never can lose it. And then we transcend to how do you achieve that in marble?
 
 Gianofer Fields  02:32
 So then, how hands-on are you when that happens? Are you in studio looking? Are you getting photographs? How are they giving you the information as they're working through the process of recreating hair?
 
 Camille Friend  02:46
 Yes, so a lot of it is in photographs, you know, we can FaceTime, we can do different things. But since I'm here, I mean, it's lovely, because we get to really workshop and talk about it, like I was over talking to the sculptors already and just talking about from, you know, from the rendering to, we're here to there and just doing looking at it and giving little, you know, little pointers and little thoughts about how to make it look more natural. Because the bottom line is, is making it look natural and as real as possible. Because everything you want to base it in reality.
 
 Gianofer Fields  03:17
 So then, as you're getting it closer and closer to reality, what are some of the cues you look for in, 'Aha, they're getting it! It's getting closer!'
 
 03:21
 For me, I'd look at the hairline. What does the hairline look like? What is the form and the strike of the curl? If it's a lock, what does the lock look like? Are you seeing the texture? Are you seeing the coils? Are you seeing the kink in the hair, all of those things. When you're working in the process, you can't be afraid of the process. The process goes high, it goes low, but you just have to stay on course and allow the process to naturally happen.
 
 Gianofer Fields  03:53
 How's, I have one more question. I always do this. And I'm sorry. Talk to me about the conversation. Are you do you feel like you have to first not only educate people about African American and about Black hair, about, around the conversation, do you find that people, particularly people who aren't Black, do you find that there is some hesitation in the conversation because there's this what we call Wisconsin nice? You don't want to say the wrong thing, right? You don't want to overstep. So is it hard to get into the conversation, because the language around here was so different?
 
 04:29
 No, I think for me, I just tried to make the language, you know, common. And I think especially I know that they want me to be here. So I'm bringing my game as a game and I want to teach and give knowledge and even the past stuff that I've done with the sculptors like talk to them individually. We did the class. I know how much that has helped them. So I know that we're making strides to move forward.
 
 Gianofer Fields  04:54
 So you're shuffling here these papers, is this your class is just like class?
 
 Camille Friend  04:58
 Yeah, this is this is part of the class. Ask, just giving people visuals and things that they can keep and they can look at. And I also have, like, I have different I'd have different hair textures. So things that people can tangibly touch, I think is important, you know, to get your hands on it, to feel it to see it to know it.
 
 Gianofer Fields  05:17
 Camille, Jim told us that you said he couldn't touch your hair. So how do you get over that problem?
 
 Camille Friend  05:25
 Well, you know, you have to you have to teach people, to educate. Also, and we know as Black women, you don't touch the hair. Don't touch the hair. I'll go Matrix on you. Swerve.
 
 Gianofer Fields  05:43
 So Camille, tell me what you're looking at, as you look at the sculpture.
 
 Camille Friend  05:46
 I'm just looking at we were I was in here this morning. And just looking at we talked about a few things, I just seeing how Wendy's is really creating the depth, the contrast, the highs, and the lows. So it's just not all the curls are all the texture looking like this. You're seeing highs and lows just like we put hair color and people's hair to create darkness and lightness. We want to create the same thing in marble, and that's natural in hair. Yes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  06:10
 So when do you, how does this affect your technique when you're working on it? What do you, what are your, what is your plan for tackling this?
 
 Wenndy Sempertegui  06:16
 Well, I'm just trying to understand what she is trying to tell me. You know, that is not heavy, that it has, like, I cannot say, like, clouds, air? Yeah, but also, we cannot make a mass and that's it. we need to make movement, and like she said, light and so I'm trying to figure out how to do that carving stone and not to you know, cut too much and make a hole, and give it air and give these distinctions and then later to make see the small little hairs all together. And yeah, trying to work, trying to make some tests,  and then maybe she sees it, says maybe or not. It's just a work going on trying some things. And yeah, I'm a little bit afraid, although, but I hope I can get you something and it will be okay.
 
 Camille Friend  06:20
 Oh, no, I'm looking, I'm looking!
 
 Wenndy Sempertegui  07:18
 You know, it's because in history, you see a lot of marble statues. But I've never seen a Black hair statue. So there's no school, there's no old things. In normal white hairs it's, you think about the weight, how they go down right? Here it’s completely different. We have to come here, to make it go down, but it should be going up, right? This is what I'm trying to figure out.
 
 Gianofer Fields  07:47
 You're like defying gravity with stone.
 
 Camille Friend  07:51
 Yeah, that's true. That's very true.
 
 Wenndy Sempertegui  07:53
  I'm just, I think I'm just trying to learn as much as possible. I love what I do. I'm fortunate to just be here. There's a lot of people that they are so great. So I'm just trying to learn.
 
 Camille Friend  08:08
 This is the best that I've ever seen, in marbling of Black hair. Oh, Wenndy, this is the best. And like us workshopping it, like I think we're all, but it's, your level of skill is incredible.
 
 Wenndy Sempertegui  08:25
 Thank you so much. I've been just trying to ...
 
 Camille Friend  08:28
 I know that, you're so humble. But that's ... yeah, right. Yeah. And it makes such a big difference. And this is so important. It has to be right. It has to be right.
 
 Wenndy Sempertegui  08:37
 Because what I have to tell you, I was so afraid. Because normally the process would be they already have a model. I do as much as similar as possible. This is me putting into what, but I was so like, I to be too respectful to do whatever.
 
 Camille Friend  08:56
 And I want you to come back, and like I always say come away from it. I do here like this too, especially here, you got to come away from it. Because when you're on top of it, you lose you lose the perspective. But like even if you compare, I want you to look at this side to this side. Oh, like you can really see the difference. And like this, this this pattern that you created right here. This is it. Yeah. So I think an alteration ... and this is right to like everything is right. We just, so just I want you to know, everything you're doing is right. We're just going to work at how to, how to incorporate, but what you got now, you got the two right things. So let's just, let's just like, bring it together.
 
 Wenndy Sempertegui  09:43
 Can I say, my work this morning, I just tried that. And I just said to myself, I don't know how to dance with this. I need to get away to dance with this and this and that. That's for me. The thing is when I feel like I'm dancing, everything is okay. I got ...
 
 Camille Friend  10:02
 No I see what you're saying, you're in your rhythm.
 
 Wenndy Sempertegui  10:04
 Yes. Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
 
 Camille Friend  10:09
 No, I think we should let you let you work. So thrilled! Yes! Beautiful, beautiful! Yay. So good! Yeah.  All right. Okay!
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:28
 You've been listening to Meet Me at the Chazen. Our guests,  Oscar-nominated beautician and hair stylist Camille Friend and stone carver Wenndy Sempertegui, combine forces to create the iconic mane of Frederick Douglass, for the Lifting the Veil sculpture created by artist Sanford Biggers, featured in the re:mancipation exhibition at UW–Madison's Chazen Museum of Art. Meet Me at the Chazen is a production of the Chazen Museum of Art on the campus of U–W Madison in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information about the museum, its collections and exhibitions visit chazen.wisc.edu. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. Thank you for listening.