Insistent Presence: Amy Gilman

What do we mean when we say "African art"? How did these works come to be here? Who decides, and why? Chazen Director Amy Gilman and Host Gianofer Fields engage with these questions and more as they discuss the opening of Insistent Presence: Contemporary African Art from the Chazen Collection.

Meet Me at the Chazen is a podcast about the the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Chazen Museum of Art, the largest collecting museum in the Big Ten. As we report what’s happening here, we'll also explore what it means to be an art museum at a public university and how art museums can help enrich and strengthen the communities they serve. Meet Me at the Chazen theme and incidental music is “Swinging at the Pluto Lounge,” composed and performed by Marvin Tate and friends, and is used with permission of the artists.

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Transcript

 Gianofer Fields  00:06
 Meet Me at the Chazen. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields.
 
 Amy Gilman  00:11
 How can we both start to complicate the narrative of, quote, "traditional African art collection," and not take contemporary African art and segregate it into the African gallery, right? How can we do that in a way that feels transparent and thoughtful and really helps us understand all of it better?
 
 Gianofer Fields  00:42
 Amy Gilman is the director of the Chazen Museum of Art. And she wants you to think about a couple of things not addressed in the opening clip. What decisions were made in order for works of art to be on display, and what are we not seeing? The new exhibit is entitled Insistent Presence. The focus is contemporary African artists from the continent and diaspora. The exhibition features objects from the Chazen's permanent collection, and four new acquisitions selected by guest curator Margaret Nagawa. According to Gilman, the goal for this exhibition is not only to reintroduce established artists, but also to support and bring new voices into the conversation about the insistent presence of African artists in the museum world.

Amy Gilman  01:27
 It actually really started back in 2018, when I was approached by Sarah Guyer and Scott Strauss, who were then professors in the English and political science departments respectively, here at UW Madison, they are collectors of contemporary African art. And they had an idea. And their idea was that through a family foundation, if they were to arrange a fairly substantial gift, would we be interested in having that money be able to be spent directly on acquiring contemporary African art with the intention of really changing the museum's collection, really building a very solid base in this area. And, and very importantly, to both of them, the idea of fostering relationships with artists and institutions around the continent, right. So like really beginning, that for the museum know that there's a very strong research and teaching relationship between many countries in Africa and the UW–Madison, but not the museum, right. So. So they started this conversation with me in 2018. And from the very beginning, we all wanted there to be a focus on contemporary artists of all stripes of lots of different media. And we wanted a mix of artists who were really well established, but also artists who were emerging, and who were younger, and perhaps not as well known. And we wanted to acquire over enough time so that we could really get some depth, but not so long that it felt like we were we were just sort of trickling out. And eventually, the original intention from the very beginning was to have an exhibition and a catalog. But we didn't set a timeline on it. And I think that's actually part of the generosity of these two donors is really thinking that this kind of thing can take time. And you want to give it the right amount of time to develop. And so beginning really in 2019, when Katherine arrived, Katherine Alcauskas, who's the museum's chief curator. She really put together the first round, or all the rounds, but really that first round of acquisitions and acquired works for the museum's collection that are real anchor pieces, not just for this collection, and for this exhibition, but really for the museum's permanent collection in perpetuity. And then, it really developed from there.
 
 Gianofer Fields  04:32
 One of the things that would always irritate me, was that you go to the African collection, and it was all antiquities, and they were all in one space, like you better walk through this room and get all of it. And one of the things that I've talked about or spoken about with other curators, and other museum directors, was that sometimes, especially when it comes to some contemporary work, especially when it and it can include contemporary African work, if it's not donated by an outside source, sometimes you just can't get them. And the gallery collection of the museum's collection can be based on what is available. And what's been given. Am I close? Is that the reason why we sometimes don't see particular words or words from, you know, contemporary African artists? Is that part of the issue?
 
 Amy Gilman  05:23
 That is certainly part of the issue. Part of it is that all museum all art museum collections, but certainly I think ours, specifically, is a collection of collections. And although the museum has acquired through purchasing throughout its entire history, the bulk of the collection has come through the generosity of donors who have acquired the works in advance, right. So for example, we have a particularly excellent group of holdings in mid-20th century sculpture and works of art on paper about sculpture. And that is because we have the Lane Collection and the Lanes collected  artists such as Louise Nevelson, and Lee Bontecou and John Chamberlain and Varujan Boghosian in depth, and works on paper by them that were sometimes directly related to the sculptures and sometimes more tangentially related. But that means that for example, we have probably seven Louise Nevelson sculptures, that's pretty unusual, for any art museum, most of them have one, right. So it gives us this really wonderful depth in a particular area. But it also means that, you know, we, you know, we're not acquiring actively in that area right now. And it all really reflects the very particular taste of those of those donors. And now, that has some advantages. But it also means that, for example, like that selection is not particularly diverse in terms of the kinds of artists that are in that group. There are women represented in that group, really important women, but also, but no, no real breath, right, it's dominated by men, and they are entirely white. I say that with a little qualifier, because I guess I can't say that for sure.
 
 But so when we, when you go around a museum, or anybody goes around a museum, you're seeing a history of decisions that were made, not just by the museum itself, but by collectors, and curators, and directors of the museum and related to the museum, you know, throughout history, and how they end how those particular objects end up there can be through a variety of ways. So one of the things that you can do with your,  our, limited acquisition funds is look at pockets where you are unlikely to get work donated, and that you really want to be able to represent or collect in depth or, or fill in gaps, and use those funds to be able to do that. But it also means that you're really stretching dollars in a wide variety of ways. And the way the museum's endowment works is that not all funds can be used for acquisition of all objects. Some endowment funds are specific, they're specific to Chinese art, maybe art of a certain medium or have a certain time period or have a certain geographic location, right. And so, we also have to balance what are we actually capable of doing in the market, but then when you have an opportunity like this come along, and I was very interested in diversifying the collection in this particular way. I think that also, to your point, often, as museum goers we are kind of trained to think about certain cultures as fixed in time. Right. So, you know, it's, you know, if you're acquiring, you know, Greek objects, you're like, Oh, they're from ancient Greece, and you're like, you know, people have continued to live there.
 
 Gianofer Fields  09:50
 No!
 
 Amy Gilman  09:51
 Right? And similarly with Africa, right? So a lot of objects that have been collected historically from the continent, and the continent is so enormous and, and so diverse in terms of, of the kinds of communities and objects that are produced for a wide variety of reasons, is that what you really are seeing is often the point of view of Western culture colonizers coming into the continent at a specific moment, and specific communities and groups at like, right at this moment, and then it becomes fixed in time, right, because that's when either, you know, the British or the Belgians or whoever are coming in, and they're seeing things and then they are acquiring them, right, through a variety of methods ....
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:56
 You can't see Amy's face right now, but it's doing all kinds of side eyeing.
 
 Amy Gilman  11:02
 So this is where, you know, then a lot of collections are, that we are that are foundational to museums today are created with a lot of these objects. And that creates a market for those kinds of objects. So even 100 years later, it is those kinds of objects that continue to be valued, and seen as the you know, "African art" with quotes around it. So part of my interest in this, and I, I hope, and I really believe that part of the interest of the donors, was helping everyone understand that, that Africa is not a single entity, it is not fixed in time. It has vital communities who have very wide ranging histories, and traditions, et. cetera. And there are contemporary artists living in all of these spaces, or who were born there and live elsewhere now, et. cetera, who are sometimes, like sort of appropriating some of the looks of the in, quote, African art, or those traditions specifically, but really talking about them as, you know, in contemporary practice. So not trying to replicate certain things, but really trying to understand our world, which is one of the things that contemporary artists are particularly brilliant at is actually taking our world and reflecting it back to us in ways that help us think about it differently.
 
 Gianofer Fields  12:47
 I'm wondering how much of that is the museum being tied to a university, and also being tied to what the Madison public is willing to digest in the moment? How much of that are you gearing towards, or how much of it is influenced by what the climate of the community is at the time?
 
 Amy Gilman  13:06
 So I guess I would say, I think that our role as a university art museum is very important. And it does impact the collection in certain ways. And certainly, we try to be responsive to faculty who are trying to teach from the collection to ensure that there are works that are relevant to them, that will be out during the academic year. But that doesn't limit us to those things. The other part of it is that and actually, this is a really good example, the African collection is a very good example of this. There was an eminent African historian, Henry Drewal, who was part of the art history department for decades. And Henry had a profound impact on the collection of African Art here at the museum. It was not only, you know, he often would connect the director with collectors, but he would also, you know, scout acquisitions during periods and things like that. Now, because of that, the African collection, the traditional African collection here at the museum, is very reflective of Henry Drewal's research interests, as you would expect, but there's not a lot of other Africanists on campus in art history. So, it really is very much about, you know, Henry Drewal’s interest, research interests, and point of view. And so, you don't know that as a visitor, right? You just think this is African art, right? Because that's what we're presenting, but it has already been filtered many, many times, and then through an expert who's actually looking himself at a very narrow area. Right? And not that he couldn't look more broadly. But it is actually, part of the thing that I hope that people will understand over time about museum collections is that is to really not just understand, but actually question for yourselves. What are the decisions that were made in order for this to be here today? And what are we not seeing because other decisions were made, or somebody that wants to focus on x, or, you know, something is particularly conservation-sensitive and can't be out on view, right? There's lots of reasons. And we don't, we haven't historically been that transparent about how those decisions get made, or what it means to understand the history of objects in that way.
 
 Now, when it comes to the, what the Madison community or the university community expects, in my experience, so far, they're both are actually incredibly open to seeing things differently. As long as you are able to give everybody some context, right. And my predecessor, Russell Panczenko, had already acquired several contemporary African objects, he acquired the El Anatsui piece [Danu], which is an amazing work. And that work tends to be hung in the contemporary galleries, and not in the African galleries. And one of the things that we want to start to really examine, not solely through this exhibition, which is really focused, but then as that translates into thinking about the permanent collection installation, is, how can we both start to complicate the narrative of, quote, "traditional African art collection?" And not take contemporary African art and segregate it into the African gallery? Right? And how can we do that in a way that feels transparent and thoughtful, and, and really helps us understand all of it better. But the other thing, and I don't want to discount this, because it certainly is an important part of it is that if you, if you started acquiring contemporary Chinese painting 20 years ago, you would have been right ahead of the curve. And if you had waited five years, you probably wouldn't have been able to afford it. Right? Like, there's like a very, like on that particular, like there was this very steep market acceleration that happened.

And we started acquiring in the contemporary African market right at the point where there is a real surge in interest. And so part of what the strategy was that Katherine would acquire, for the museum, a couple of these objects, the Toguo [Exodus], and the Sibande [Sower in the Field] are great examples that are really anchor pieces. And those artists are really well established, right? Showing internationally, acquired by museums all over the globe, et. cetera. But really then starting to delve into like, okay, can we really start to look at artists who are not already completely on everybody's radar, so that the collection becomes very distinctive and has a mix of if you're familiar, you might actually recognize a few of them, but you might have some surprises, right. And if you're not familiar, then you might really get surprised by the kind of depth that's present.

Gianofer Fields  19:17
 Another thing I want to say before we before I forget about Henry Drewal, who was a professor of mine, what's really what I also have to check myself with when I go into African art exhibits is to look at the dates, because there's a Lamidi Olonade Kakeye in there that, I was there when he was, when he came here to bring that piece. And so just because it's in this room, and they're antiques, does not necessarily mean that it's not a contemporary work, which is, it's easy to like just sort of get blinded by all of it and think that it's all from 100 years ago.
 
 Amy Gilman  19:47
 Yes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  19:48
 Some of it could be from like 10, I think that's like 10 or 11 years ago.
 
 Amy Gilman  19:51
 Exactly.
 
 Gianofer Fields  19:52
 So that's something to keep in mind. And my other thing is what drives that market. Like, what causes that sudden interest in an area of collection? What causes suddenly the African contemporary art to be hot?
 
 Amy Gilman  20:11
 Well ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  20:12
 Is it you?
 
 Amy Gilman  20:13
 Yeah, it's totally me. I mean, I do think that certain ... so the art market is large, it's global, and it has certain hot pockets to it, and things tend to go up and down, right. And this is not just true of contemporary work, right? This is true, so, for example, if you were acquiring, you are a collector of American paintings traditionally understood to be American paintings, like 17th, through early, you know, late 19th century or whatever. And you wanted to acquire during the late 90s and early 2000s, the market was so hot for that, that work, because both Alice Walton and George Lucas, were building American art collections at the time, and they were buying everything, and they were driving the market in that case. So now, actually, now is a good time to acquire American paintings of certain stripes, right? So you'd have to part of it is just knowing what are areas that other parts of the market aren't paying as close attention to, and not getting sucked into, oh, this is so hot right now, I'm going to really go out and buy something for more money than I should. So, but part of the reason why you go and you do that, right, you find things that are undervalued at the moment, is that the market will eventually figure that out, too. And that's not you know, it's not like, it's, it's a mix, right? It's galleries, and it's collectors. And, you know, people want to know that they're in on something that's kind of emerging, and that they want to be somebody who can say that I acquired a work early, right. There's lots of reasons why you do it. And there's a risk to that, especially in the contemporary market, because some of those artists won't, won't have long careers, right? They might not, but in some cases, right, you, you, you are acquiring early enough and thoughtfully enough that it turns out that you look really prescient, right, in terms of decision making. And as a director of a museum that has, you know, a fairly limited acquisition budget in general is like, I'm always looking for the things that are some that other people are not paying attention to, because we collect in perpetuity. So I don't need I don't want to collect at the top of the market. And I don't have the money to do that. Right? I want to be able to, and there are certain things that are always be out of our reach, unless they're donated, right, and it's not really worth our time and energy to go after those from a, you know, like, paying to acquire them standpoint, let's go, let's really look for things that are, that fulfill the needs that we have, that are where we really feel like we can like add value to the whole collection.

And in the case of this initiative, how can we also do that in a way that truly supports artists. And, and so, you know, you want to sometimes buy directly from artists, if they're not represented. Also, you know, working to support galleries that are actually on the continent, and, you know, are really driving that market there and really helping with that. And then, you know, working really, to raise the profile of some of the emerging artists that we're bringing into our collection. And sure, we want to do that, because we want people to pay attention to our collection. But also, we want to do that because we believe that artists have something really special to say to the world and it's part of our job to bring them to a wider audience. And so I hope that that is what will happen with this exhibition. And one of the other crucial decisions that we made and I'm sure you'll get into this more when you talk to Katherine and then of course, when you talk to Margaret, was the decision that we made to hire an outside curator. And we Catherine I knew that we wanted to do this from very early on, we wanted somebody who really had a foundation of sort of both artistic and curating a not from a solely Western perspective. And Margaret, who is both an artist and a curator, and, and is now a PhD student at Emory, and was born in Uganda is, is really ideal for that. She is also an emerging voice, and we want to be able to foster that. That's part of our brief right, is to be able to foster scholarship and grow, help grow people's careers. But we also, I think it's really important to center a curatorial point of view, even though a percentage of the artworks have been acquired in advance, but Margaret has had the opportunity to acquire a few herself, a curatorial point of view that really comes from the space and not from somebody looking at the space from outside.
 
 Gianofer Fields  26:09
 That's why I think, for me, Insistent Presence is such a spot-on way to describe the exhibit, because you have this, from the outside looking in, you can, it's almost like you can see a jump, if you don't know the El Anatsui is in the contemporary gallery, you don't know where it is. There's this sort of outside perception that it's a jump in time period, but it's not. And for me, insistence has several meetings like it does for everybody. But that sort of like we've always been here, we've always been here, yes, you just didn't know where to look, we've always been here, and taking up space, self-identifying, all these tendrils, all these parts of the exhibit are like you're not necessarily peeling the layers off the onion to, to reveal something that's always been there. But it's sort of like this groundswell. It's like this bubbling up of all this information, and all of these works, and all of these things that that have always been here. But here's somewhere where we couldn't see them, I don't even know it's almost like a ghost. It's like a ghostly presence, this sort of always, not necessarily haunting you in a bad way, but always just sort of reminding you that we've always been here, like, it's always been here.

Amy Gilman  27:37
 Well, and, and I love the way the idea of insistent presence grounds the whole collection and exhibition in the human body, but also acknowledges that it's not an exhibition about the body and about, like, it's not an exhibition about portraiture, right, a little, there's portraiture in the exhibition. But it allows, for example, you know, artists who are really exploring, like the history of, of certain physical space, right, and, and the kind of remnants of human interaction with a space that has left a kind of indelible mark on the landscape in various ways. And the kind of I think ghostly presence is a good way of describing it, but it's also it's this, like, see unsee, see unsee, where you actually like, there are a number of works, where you see the figure, and then you realize that the whole thing is about something more than the figure or the figure is not present at all, but it requires a human in order for the whole thing to be complete. Right. And so I do, I think it's incredibly evocative. And I love the fact that Margaret is deliberately calling back to her own sort of curatorial ancestors, right, she talks about a very specific curator who was widely known in around internationally and you know, as one of the most important influences on her and the, the phrase insistent presence comes from him.
 
 Gianofer Fields  29:28
 This is not about the body as an object. This is about the, the body as an inspiration, and what that is. What is a body? What is presence? Is it physical, is it ephemeral? Is it a suggestion, right? Is it hopefully something you get to? There's all these different ways to play with what that means, in terms of what does it mean to be African? What does it mean to be African American? What does contemporary look like? Who gets to decide what that looks like? Why happens at like, where does this go from here? How is this? Gonna get to my question one of these days? Is this exhibit a way to reintroduce the community to the work that Chazen has? And where does it go from here? How long do I get to bask in this presence? How long can I feel this?
 
 Amy Gilman  30:22
 Well, so one of the things, reasons why we wanted to bring them all together for an actual exhibition is to be able to talk about them in this way, right. But, and we hope that the exhibition will travel a little bit like to maybe one or two other venues around the country, because we think it's really important, and we think that audiences will really respond to it. But the intention, eventually, is not to necessarily have a gallery that's contemporary African art. It is actually to incorporate many of these objects into the stories that we are developing for the eventual permanent collection reinstallation. And what I would anticipate is that, you know, some of them may very well be cornerstones of parts of that installation. And some of them may also be put in dialogue with other objects from other cultures and other time periods as a way of continuing to open up this kind of more porous and fruitful understanding about how cultures actually interact with each other.
 
 Gianofer Fields  31:35
 And how, and I think what I'm really excited to see is how, because you mentioned it earlier, how do you put contemporary African artworks in a gallery without segregating them to, okay, this is the Black stuff over here, to that, like, how do we reexamine that? How do you? How do you blend all these works in a way? That doesn't, I have to say it, oftentimes, when people walk in the galleries, and I'm guilty of it myself, is to assume that everything in here is by somebody from European descent, unless I'm told that, because that's traditionally what we've seen, unless you go to the room with the Asian art, and the Indigenous art and African art, and most of them are, and, you know, historical works, almost antiquated. I don't want to say, that historical works. And so that for me, I'm interested in seeing how that develops, how that unfolds, because it's such a difficult thing to do. You don't want it to have you don't want to segregate it, you don't want to have it be this, this anomaly in a room full of whiteness, you want it to be part of this room? And I don't even know if that's a question. Good luck with that one. [laughter]
 
 Amy Gilman  32:53
 Well, you know, what you're really getting at is so, you know, one of the links between the re:mancipation project and this project is that, like, they're not the same thing, right, at all. But they are taking really close looks at objects, right? They're really grounding objects. And one of the things that we have really wanted to focus on with the permanent collection installation is really, we want to learn the lessons of the re:mancipation project. And we want to have a more nuanced and complex understanding about what it means to tell a diverse set of stories, right, which is not solely about representation, right? It's like, it's not like, okay, we're gonna get this number of artists who are Black and this number of artists who are Latina, and we're gonna put them all in a room together, right? It's, it's actually, can we start to, by really grounding our work in deep looks at objects, start to create links between objects that didn't appear to be related to each other. But that then when you are actually looking at all of them, they tell a really complex and interesting story about something that you're trying to unpack. And I think museums are actually particularly well-suited for this because we can actually ground everything in the objects, because that's really what we are about is the objects so you can see things. And so some of the things that Margaret talks about in her essays in the catalog are things that that are really important aspects of these artists' history and their lives and what they are grappling with. And those things are very important to understand in that context of this object, but they're also things that have relationships to other objects in the collection. And that combined together helps us understand our humanity better, or, you know, our global society in different ways, in ways that I hope will sort of further this idea that we have lots of really important serious and complex things to grapple with, as individuals, as communities, as a country, globally. And the role of the museum should be to find ways of actually helping us do that, that creates a dialogue and a learning space and not a just like, "I'm going to lecture at you about the history of this object."

Gianofer Fields  35:43
 So I'm gonna ask you a question that it's difficult for me to formulate, it might be hard for you to hear.
 
 Amy Gilman  35:49
 Okay.
 
 Gianofer Fields  35:49
 You ready?
 
 Amy Gilman  35:50
 Yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  35:51
 So re:mancipation went crazy, in the best possible way. Now you have Insistent Presence, coming in, both deal with African and African American worlds, situations? See, I'm having such a hard time saying this, I can't think of it. African American subject matter is difficult. It's hard. It's hard to approach. I'm gonna say it, you can take it. If it's wrong, you can correct me. Do you feel like you're being centered in this conversation? Or other museums looking to you like, Okay, how do we do this? Like, we're museums that are run by majority white people, you seem to you clearly have an understanding of the subject matter? And how to get to it and how to make it approachable? Are other museums looking at you as sort of like, do you feel yourself being put in a position where people may be asking you questions that you would kind of like that? I'm a part of this. This is not all, you know what I mean? Like ...

Amy Gilman  36:54
 I do know what you mean, I, I don't know the answer to that part about other museums. I do know that my role in this, not only with re:mancipation, but with Insistent Presence, and with the upcoming permanent collection reinstallation, is to ensure that we have lots of voices and part of my job, right is I mean, I am the director of the museum, I will always have a big voice. So I don't have to make sure that that happens. That just happens, right? The actual thing I can use my big voice for is making sure that others are able to participate and in not in like, Oh, I'm asking you to participate, and then you provide me with this thing. And then we use is actually like, like the decision to hire Margaret, right? Like Katherine and I, it was not appropriate for us to be the curators on this exhibition. And we wanted to do something that was really grounded in our, as a museum's, values. And one of those things is the idea of really fostering the next generation of curators. And this project really called for that. So you, you go out and you find someone who we didn't know before, but who come who came, you know, like highly recommended from people, who was doing this incredible work, and who I know, is going to have this amazing career, right? And we're maybe, you know, like this little part of it, the beginning that helps her do that.

And so part of my job is not like, this is not about, like, I mean, it's a total legitimate critique, like is easy, I think, as a director, as a white woman to slip into kind of like, oh, like the savior mentality, right? Like, you're gonna be like, Okay, well, we're gonna, like, Amy has figured this out, like, no, Amy has not figured out anything. What I have figured out, like, I haven't figured out anything about the, I can't give you a list of the things you're supposed to do as a museum director. But the thing I can do is be like, you have to get out of your own way, right? You have to bring in people who are really smart and creative. And then you have to ensure that they can do what you've asked them to do in a way that does not make it what I would do, it makes it what they would do the best thing. And that I think is actually it's not so much about the re:mancipation project, and then this one, and then the next one, that's actually like, there's not going to be a checklist on how to do this. Right? There is not, you know, there's going to be a process and the process is going to require continually being humbled. And knowing that, in my case, my job is to make sure that we have the right people in the right places to be able to do something extraordinary. And then I have to get the resources to do it. And I have to make sure that people don't get like they don't get stuck or worried or move things out of their way. And do I? Am I always successful with that? No. Do I sometimes get in my own way? Yes. But like, that's the goal.

Gianofer Fields  40:17
 It's really interesting, that idea of, of legacy and ego, like what do you want your legacy to be? Do you want your legacy to be the person at the center of these things? Or do you own, do you want your legacy to be, not necessarily an insistent presence, but a presence that is more invisible? With what I do, people always assume that it's about me, but it's not, has nothing to do with me. I'm just a conduit for questions. I try to figure out what other people might want to know. And ask it in a way that's accessible for people who are curious. It's not about Gianofer going out and doing these things. It's about who can I talk to, that can give us something else to think about, right? Or help us approach something in a way that may be more comfortable, or maybe a way that's a little bit more scary. But still, we want to approach that thing. And I think that what often happens, or from my limited perspective of museums and galleries, it's often, as with Henry Drewal and the collections, it's often what the particular person is interested in what their specialty is in, rather than this sounds like an amazing idea. Who's the best person to do it? So this is that that sort of like, not ego death, but just like sort of like understanding, as my mother would say, knowing your place, you know, knowing your lane, doing what you're supposed to do in a way that lifts other people, but not necessarily still under your umbrella or under your wing. It's a lifting up of people, but without necessarily like your wings shadowing over them.
 
 Amy Gilman  42:04
 Well, I do think I mean, when you talk about legacy, right? Before I became a director, and even like the first couple years, I became a director, I would have said, like, I just want to know that, that when I leave a place, it's better than I found it not because it was bad before, but because you should try to leave a place better than you found it. And now, especially because I'm so focused on people, right? And honestly, all of these projects are about people. Right? All of these, every single one of the projects that we do is about people. I mean, all of these people love objects, and we're all interested in objects. But, you know, the museum is a mausoleum without people, whether visitors or staff is, to me, like the best legacy I could ask for long after I'm dead, would be for there to be a lot of people out there in the world who are working in museums of various stripes at various levels, who, when they are asked about their career, say that there was a moment that they worked, you know, in a long narrative, right, that they worked with me either on an individual project or as a staff person or whatever, in a way that was influential to them in a positive way, and that it helped them. That's, I mean, that's the legacy, right? Like the legacy is that people are out there saying things about you. That means that you impacted them in a way that was positive in their own trajectory, not in how I see them.
 
 Gianofer Fields  43:44
 I love a museum director that talks about people … when they're focused on objects! [laughter]

You've been listening to Meet Me at the Chazen. Our guest, Amy Gilman, is the director of UW-Madison's Chazen Museum of Art. Meet Me at the Chazen is a production of the Chazen Museum of Art on the campus of UW-Madison in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information about the museum, its collections and exhibitions, visit chazen.wisc.edu. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. Thank you for listening.