Insistent Presence: Immy Mali

Host Gianofer Fields talks with Ugandan visual artist Immy Mali about Virtually Mine, a mobile, sculptural work drawn from text messages between the artist and her then-fiancé, now-husband. Mali talks about the mental pictures of each other we create when we're apart and why glass was the ideal material to represent qualities of their long-distance relationship.

Meet Me at the Chazen is a podcast about the the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Chazen Museum of Art, the largest collecting museum in the Big Ten. As we report what’s happening here, we'll also explore what it means to be an art museum at a public university and how art museums can help enrich and strengthen the communities they serve. Meet Me at the Chazen theme and incidental music is “Swinging at the Pluto Lounge,” composed and performed by Marvin Tate and friends, and is used with permission of the artists.

We'd love to connect - find us on Facebook and Instagram!

Transcript

Gianofer Fields  00:02
 Meet Me at the Chazen. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. The exhibition is entitled Insistent Presence: Contemporary African Art from the Chazen Collection and features a sculpture by Ugandan visual artist Immy Mali entitled Virtually Mine.

Immy Mali  00:19
 So my work is about memory and the complexities in memory and interrogating that. Childhood memories currently is the work that I'm walking around. But things that are infused in there in terms of education system, in terms of religion, in terms of the patriarchal society that you grew up in. My family is a huge subject matter for me to keep going back to and interrogating. Yeah, I think I can say that for now.
 
 Gianofer Fields  00:52
 It consists of over 300 glass tiles, cut to the size of a cell phone screen. Each tile is covered with a vinyl sheet and printed with a text message sent between Mali and her then-sweetie, now-husband. The conversation spans the two years they were apart. The glass tiles hang from a metal rod and once installed, takes the shape of a person. The tinkling you hear is created by the slightest movement of air.
 
 Gianofer Fields  01:26
 Immy, you work in so many different mediums. Is it the memory that dictates the medium? Or do you have a memory, and then whatever happens, happens? Do you have a, I'm going to either have this memory, I'm going to capture it in this medium or is it something pops up, and then that's what dictates how you decide to share that with an audience or share it with even yourself?
 
 Immy Mali  01:52
 Well, it mainly is whatever pops or whatever idea comes, then kind of directs me to the medium that I should use. Because some ideas come and it's best, you can only capture them in sound. And then I use sound as a medium to work with. And then some can only be in text and then I use text and then some can only be in food. And then I use food as a medium. So it really keeps evolving and changing based on the idea and how best to communicate it. Yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  02:30
 So is it instantaneous? Do you have a memory and then the medium pops into your head? Or do you sort of work it over and dissect it in your head and go okay, then this is the best way to do this.
 
 Immy Mali  02:43
 I do a lot of writing in notebooks. I do a lot of writing in notebooks. Unfortunately, I don't follow the note, notebook. So I sometimes write in the middle of the page and then the end of the book and then like come to the beginning. So it's really a jumble I love to keep them. I would, yeah, the last time I had notebooks for my residents in Amsterdam, I kind of had to ship them. Yeah, because I would rather lose anything else but my notebooks.
 
 Gianofer Fields  03:14
 That would be like losing your mind, if you lose your notebook you're losing your mind.
 
 Immy Mali  03:18
 Yeah, yeah. So I, I have this and most times I keep writing down. Well, different ideas come to me when I'm doing different things. Sometimes I'm cooking and then I'm like, Oh, it would be good in this medium. Or sometimes I'm walking and then I could see something and think oh, that that might be good, yeah, to use that. So I think it's it really is different mediums. Yes, that come together. But it's the idea that keeps evolving through the different things I jot down. It's jotting down and I listen a lot. I listen a lot, more than I watch things, like watch things on screen, I would rather listen. So I think the process of listening as well also helps me put things together.
 
 Gianofer Fields  04:08
 That's funny you say that because whenever I teach younger people how to do audio, I tell them go find a movie. Yeah, something that you love and just listen to it. Yeah, because this is the emotion that listens to the sound of, listen to the quality of their voices. Do they use music or do they not, and then start to put the picture together.
 
 Immy Mali  04:25
 Yes, exactly.
 
 Gianofer Fields  04:26
 Because there's something about that because I think that sound permeates in a way that watching something doesn't necessarily hit the same way.
 
 Immy Mali  04:36
 No. When I was growing up, we listened to BBC a lot. We listened to BBC a lot. It's the only place I knew about plays, like radio plays radio drama. And for me that was the picture, like the sound was the picture. I don't know how else to say that, but it was. So even now, I find that if I watch things, I'm distracted a lot, then when I listen, because when you listen, then you learn to pay attention more intently to your surroundings to whatever is happening. And I think that is quite key in the process of making. Yeah, because I think we get distracted a lot by maybe colors and things like this. And then sometimes the soul of the work is in the sound. Yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  05:27
 You know, I'm so glad you said that, because we're standing in front of one of your works. And it's one of the most, it's a sound that for me is a duality. I love the sound of this piece. However, there are times in my life where I don't love this particular sound. So talk to me about the decision. First of all, I want you to tell me about this piece, and then we can get into how you made the decision to turn this sound into something that's solid. Because it's a little bit of a disconnect. This isn't necessarily the sound this thing makes. And I'm talking all around it. So I'm just gonna have you describe it, as I'm sure people are sick of me talking all around it. So talk to me about this work that we're standing in front of, right,  the way you're casting this spell right now with this work?
 
 Immy Mali  06:18
 Well, okay, so the work is Virtually Mine. It's a work that composes of over 300, tiny pieces of glass, that, that mimic the size of a Sony Xperia, I think it was TC-200. Or I think Sony Experia C-200, which I spent a lot of time on as I was communicating to my then-fiancé. And the conversations were it was, he had to leave Uganda. He had to leave Uganda for the purpose of finding work, for finding work that could pay much better than work at home. And before he left, there are always questions of, do you really have to go, can't we find a way to live here, can't we find a way that makes sense for us here. But then, of course, he had other responsibilities, like take care of his younger sisters' education and stuff like that. So he had to leave anyway. And then, yeah, I was invited to do, to be part of an exhibition, a traveling exhibition on migration from the south to the east, from the southern parts of Africa, to East Africa, and then to Europe. And so, when I was invited for that commission, I went, well commissioned to do a work there. I kept thinking how best can I capture this, talk about migration, but still be able to, to have myself engaged in this work. And I work best when I interrogate my own life, because I feel like then I can understand the world and stuff. And so, yeah, so that is when Virtually Mine came up. I had to call Mark, to call him where like, ‘I think I'm gonna share our conversations, do, what do you feel about that?’

Gianofer Fields  08:22
 You're laughing now, I'm guessing that's out of nervousness!
 
 Immy Mali  08:25
 He was like, 'Ah, could you just explain to me what you want to do. Because these are like our private conversations?' Yeah. Anyways, so he, yeah. So he's like, 'Okay, you can do it. But I have to see what you're going to share.' So we had to go through it together. So like, the explicit bits, we had to pull out like, because this, this tiny phone was literally for me, him, let's just say. It's a very weird thing.
 
Gianofer Fields  08:58
 But it's not, it's not, and I think that that's, that's having that extension.
 
 Immy Mali  09:04
 Yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  09:04
 Having that, like, how, how do you embrace somebody who's not there?
 
 Immy Mali  09:10
 Exactly.
 
 Gianofer Fields  09:11
 How do you do that? And so then what becomes the conduit for that? And why is it so weird when we people wear wedding rings? Yeah, I mean, it's like this object. I think that, my background, I say this every interview people might be sick of this I don't care, because it's true. My background is art history and material culture. So I'm very, I'm fascinated with people's relationships with objects and things. Because that, when you think about, this is okay, this is a wild tangent, and I'm gonna do this. You think about hoarders and their and their desire to hold on?
 
 Immy Mali  09:41
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  09:42
 You chose, it's not a hoarding. But you chose a very small thing. That's now a big thing. I mean, could you imagine how this would be in your life if you saved every cup, every napkin, every piece of paper, every shoe, everything from every event you share together while he was in Uganda with you. I mean, to me, this is like the best possible way of coping with somebody not being there.
 
 Immy Mali  10:10
 So yeah. Because then it was more from, I kept thinking of, what kept me interested in this long distance relationship. And ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:21
 Fair question.
 
 Immy Mali  10:22
 And then I will have to imagine this grand, grand man, and grand human being, and think of all his good features. And also we started dating after a very long years without meeting, so it kind of started online. He came a bit, but then he left and then yeah. So for some reason, I thought he was a very tall man. No? Yeah, okay!
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:58
 For some reason, I don't possibly have any responsibility in this, but for some reason ...
 
 Immy Mali  11:06
 Yeah. But anyway, so and then it was always also pictures that were fed to me by movies and all these things. And I was like, ‘Okay, I'm gonna create this,’ because then all like, this little thing is really him. And all these conversations would have, as, and we have sessions, moments where we had a fight, and then I deleted the entire thing. And I have blank, blank little screens as well for, for that as part of the installation. So yeah, so it was just interesting that this little object was taking all this pressure, like, like the fight, the happy moments, the like, everything that you'd have in the relationship was very virtual. And for some reason, like, I still have the phone, I just can't throw it away. I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna keep this.
 
 Gianofer Fields  11:59
 How could you? How could you?
 
 Gianofer Fields  12:02
 'Cause it's, it's what I love about the work is that it's these tiny strings, these invisible lines that are holding up this conversation. And it's that sort of like that. There's very tangible things about love. And there's very tangible things about being in a relationship. And then when something shifts from being because I don't think of dating, as the relationship you date in order to find the relationship. But there's all these sort of like intangible things. Sometimes you can see it sometimes you can't see. Exactly, I think glass can be very resilient. But glass can also be very fragile. Yeah. So it's like all these elements of what it is to be involved with somebody. Yeah.
 
 Immy Mali  12:44
 And of course, the glass was quite key for me, because then it's a place where this relationship can easily break. Yeah. So because then I thought, okay, glass would be the best medium to be able to work in. So this is how we arrive at that medium. Because then we think, okay, how best can you portray this in a way that would relate to what you're thinking or what you want to put, like, what you want to put forth and stuff like that? So yeah, for me, then the glass was that and of course, the line we're using is about 0.18 [mm. diameter]. And it allows the, it almost feels like the glass is floating, you know, like floating and takes you to this virtual space as well. And yeah, and now it stands more, of course, like a memory piece, I think then as well, it was still memories, because it was memories that was holding me still into this relationship, like, oh, he looks like this. And we had this moment and I can't stay because of this and this and this, you know. But yeah, yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  13:45
 What's the first conversation you committed to glass? At what point did you say, Okay, this has been a thought. Now it's time to put into practice. And now it's time to take this concrete thing with this ethereal background and solidify it, because once you solidify it, it's even more real. Because even like you said, you didn't delete it. Some of them. Yeah. So you can't this can't come and go it's still like sort of like this mysterious ethereal, ghostly kind of thing.
 
 Immy Mali  14:17
 Ah, well, coming to the when I decided that okay, let this be let this be glass on things like that. It was more when I thought of how fragile the relationship was, because it was, we were away from each other for two years. He could have dated somebody else.
 
 Gianofer Fields  14:35
 So could have you.
 
 Immy Mali  14:36
 Exactly, yeah. So that could have happened, but then it just was looking at that that fragility of, it is something that could vanish anytime. It feels solid. It feels solid at that very moment. But then just one thing and everything shatters. So that was one of the reasons that was like okay, I can work in glass, and I can use glass for this because this was also the first time I was handling glass. Ever so yeah.
 
Gianofer Fields  15:02
 So then what was the first message? What message did you settle on, what was the first one you committed to glass?
 
 Immy Mali  15:08
 The like the first text message?
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:10
 And if you can share it, because it might be one of those personal ones that got the [axe]?
 
 Immy Mali  15:18
 No, all I can say is the messages started from about 20, from about 2014, 2014. And then I did this work in 2016. So I don't I can't say really I remember the very first message, but I do you remember that there were more messages that sort of were like sexting that we had to take out.
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:42
 That's nobody's business.
 
 Immy Mali  15:44
 Exactly.
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:45
 So love is one of those things that can be, it's so fragile, but can be so enduring. And it is floating, and it does change. And sometimes it is the way the wind blows. And sometimes, you know, whatever is swirling around, it can make it move and make sound and make change.
 
 Immy Mali  16:04
 So yeah, it's, there wasn't one particular, one particular message, but I just know, we had to like, 'ah, no you can 't share that.’ Yeah, he was a bit … he was a bit hesitant at first, but he also is a very, very supportive person when it comes to my work, because I left him home with my two-year-old daughter, like with our two-year-old daughter, and he's always making like time, and it's like, Okay, do you need me to step back and do this, and then you can go and do this? So he's also very, very, very supportive in terms of seeing my career grow, which I really appreciate, because that's not common. That's not very common.
 
Gianofer Fields  16:47
 But you know what, that's what that two years did. What happens when that person isn't there. What happens is what you have is just, I mean, in the phone is it's personal, it's private, it's business, it's necessity, it's emergency, everything, everything, it becomes like your what do you call that? It becomes a journal. It's like, oh, you know, I don't know if you've ever had if you have one when you were a kid, but like your little keepsake box, where you keep all your little special things?
 
 Immy Mali  17:13
 Yes, yes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:14
 It becomes this thing that holds all of it.
 
 Immy Mali  17:16
 Yes, yes. Yes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:17
 So it's understandable that you can't get rid of that actual physical object.
 
Immy Mali  17:21
 Yeah. No, I could Lea. I kind of like, every time I see it, I'm like, Okay, this is part of a work that needs to needs to stay a work. Like that object itself is a work. And I was just mentioning to Margaret, that it's very, it's yes, it's part of the museum collection now. But then it's, it almost feels like a loss also.
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:47
 Well, yeah. It's like you're putting your love in somebody else's hands.
 
 Immy Mali  17:51
 Yeah, it does feel like, it does feel like that. Like, I'm like, and but then that's the nature of almost all my work. So I'm like, yeah, it's something that I have to live with. Because then I will otherwise have all my work in my studio forever, you know?
 
 Gianofer Fields  18:15
 Let's talk about this idea of, is it still transformative for you, as you're hanging these strands? And more importantly, as you're watching somebody else, hold your love in their hands on these very fragile, thin, thin, lines? Talk about what that does for your heart? Is it a heart thing? Is it a head thing? Is it a work thing? Do you compartmentalize it that way? Or are you just kind of always like this person that I just met 10 years ago, or this person that I just met five minutes ago, however long ago, has my heart in their hand?
 
 Immy Mali  18:54
 Well, I think at this point, at the point when I knew the acquisition was happening, it was more like, Okay, now these are like, these are the last moments and that that I have that I have with this work and it's going and it's going to have another life and as especially quite happy that it's an institution that's having it and not an individual. Yeah, because then then it doesn't, it doesn't feel like it's you're like giving it to another person you know, or something like that. But you know, that it's a collectively owned work that other people can be able to engage with. And so that I think took away a lot of the pressures of feeling like, I then now it's an incredible team that I'm working with and now it's more like a work thing. I'm like, Okay, if they can be able to see how it's hung to be able to, to handle it with the amount of care that I give it, and then be able to put it up, then that for me at this point is enough, but I do feel I like the moments where I'm hanging and I'm like, ‘Ah, the last time I'm doing this,’ you know.
 
 Gianofer Fields  20:05
 You know what's crazy me as you were talking about that tinged, so it's like you spoke some sort of truth to it. It's like, ‘Okay, Mom. All right. All right, it's okay.’

Immy Mali  20:16
 Yeah.
 
Gianofer Fields  20:16
 Because the thing, the thing that I think struck me was watching Kate, and Margaret, unpack it, it was like, you could feel it sort of, even on the tables. And when they were unwrapping it, you could sort of feel it starting, like taking its breath, like sort of like, okay, okay, here, we come now. Now, though, now. So then, do you have, what's your relationship with it when it's all packed away? When it's not breathing, when it's not moving? When it's not? Because part of it hanging is also allowing us to walk through it and feel that sort of somehow I don't want to say have ownership, but somehow touch you know, this very personal private, this this love coming to fruition, it's going to be the, you know what, people are going to come here on dates and read. I just thought about that. It's going to be it's going to be a date night piece, I think. Because why wouldn't you be like, Look, if they could have a different placement? It's packed away? Do you feel like that's part of the relationship becoming private again?
 
 Immy Mali  21:27
 Well, when it's when it's been packed away, in my in my studio, like I said, most of my work is like, crated and nicely placed in my studio, because I'm like, Okay, if it needs to go, then it needs to go to a place that and luckily, most of the work has gone to like institutions are not very few, not very much to individuals. So I'm like that that's a good start. But then, when it's packed away, it definitely feels different when it comes out, and then you're walking by and it's it because the tinkling keeps will keep happening. Once we're done installing that that's definitely going to keep happening. And I think that that definitely breathes a lot more than if it's packed away. So I think I like it better when it's out and breathing. And I think it speaks more to of course, the virtuality the, the yeah, like what memory does and the complexities of memory as well. So I think that that really comes through better when it's out there than when it's packed away. Yeah, it's sort of like a double-edged sword.
 
 Gianofer Fields  22:46
 So this exhibition is entitled Insistent Presence. And if there's anything that insists a presence, yeah, it's 300-and-some screenshots from a conversation. Yeah. In the form of a figure.

Immy Mali  23:02
 Yeah.
 
 Gianofer Fields  23:04
 And there's a figure male or female, or is it both of you? And why did you choose this particular outline for the piece?
 
 Immy Mali  23:13
 When I was first, considering it, I always thought of the figure as one. But then, when I realized it's not a one-way conversation, it is a two-way conversation, then the figure becomes the both of us. But then also, when I go to install it in different places, I use different people who are in that place at that time, because it's not really based on the two of us. Take this figure. I met with, with John and Roscoe right here. Because it's, it's not about the physical being. But it's about the, the two spirits that met within this space and a part of this work, and come together to have this conversation, because it feels like the conversation still continues, even when the piece is up. So yeah. Insistent Presence. Yeah.

Gianofer Fields  24:17
 I just liked the idea of you said that you base it on this. Because when we first started talking, you were talking about how you haven't had an idea of who he was and what he looked like, in your head. Yeah. And still, you're playing with that idea of what that looks like in your head. Yeah, even in this now hanging in the years of this work. There's still sort of that what does it really look like? What does all this really look like in me?
 
 Immy Mali  24:43
 Yeah, yeah. No, because that, I don't think that's going to stop. I think the work allows you to keep interrogating it farther and farther and farther, because also when I realize the things we're talking about, there's a lot of religion that comes through in the work, there's a lot of maybe economic situations that come through in the work. We do a lot of, spend a lot of, because he's in he's a landscaper, and I'm an artist and we're trying to build a house now. But that conversation started way back. And this. This comes through like we're choosing furniture choosing, like stuff within this. So it's a lot of social elements, political elements that kept popping up and coming through this, and I think it will not speak just for the for the two of us, but then continues to open the question on migration even wider and wider, and spirituality even wider. I've never thought of it in that sense. But now like, like, now it gets that being like, oh, okay, that could also be talking about this and that. And yeah, and also, when you mentioned that it looked like we were casting a spell as like, that is another different level that like, but art work should be doing that all the time. It should be opening up one's mind all the time to be able to think about different dimensions. And I'm glad that that's happening here.
 
 Gianofer Fields  26:08
 Is there one in particular that you want to read or share with me? Or do you because I'm telling you this right now, when I asked Margaret, and when I asked Kate to do it, they were nervous. Margaret would read one, but she's like, that's my friend. I don't want to get too much into her business. So is there one you want to read?
 
 Immy Mali  26:26
 Well, I could read one less, well, let's just see. I don't know what this is about.
 
 Immy Mali  26:35
 That's a German thing. I don't even know what we're talking about. But okay. That's a German thing. Then he says, 'It seems a bit far-fetched.' 'What? That's what makes it more interesting.' 'When are you going? When are you starting work on it?' 'In June.' 'We're taken.' 'When were taken. I'm loving it. And just can't wait to see you produce.' We probably were talking about an artist residency, or something. And I was talking about doing work but like, that's a German thing. I don't know.
 
 Gianofer Fields  27:14
 Isn't that a relationship, isn't that love? It's all these like little bits and pieces that in the moment, something, and build a relationship, but necessarily by themselves are kind of like don't, you have no idea.
 
 Immy Mali  27:30
 Let's see which other ones ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  27:32
 I'm like really interested as to why you're making that face. You're giving the crazy lips.
 
 Immy Mali  27:39
 Well, I say 'How many were they?' And then he says 'Show me show them to me first.' I think it's he must have bought me Glee's glasses and maybe I didn't like them.
 
 Gianofer Fields  27:57
 Okay, you were gonna pick another one. So you just pick one.
 
 Immy Mali  28:03
 He must have bought them and sent them over with someone and then I was showing them, showing him what they look like. Okay no, why don't we go ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  28:22
 Any it could be any interesting can be the trip like picking over them and deciding, but all of these will be held up for public view. I love this. This is why I like it. I just love it. I love it. I cannot tell you how much I love it.
 
 Immy Mali  28:36
 That's private, but that is okay ... "Blankets in Uganda are not woolen.' 'My colleague has less than a week.' 'You should call him  bernange.' I forgot bernange is like, I don't know how to I don't think it has an English word. But okay, bernange. ‘I forgot. ‘Okay.’ ‘Is it late to call him now?’ ‘It's just eight maybe maybe not then I could meet him tomorrow.’ ‘Try and see.’ ‘Please help me with his number again.’ He must have had a friend who had come over and there was selling something. Ah, okay, I'll just pick one, my paint ran off, this one, okay. Would I Where would I ... 'Would I wear one if my wife bought it?' 'Would you wear it? I want to know.' 'Seriously?' ‘Yes I want to know.' 'I would do anything for you.' 'Haha that would be torture.'  'But why make me wear that and incense and incense' ... I don't know what this is.
 
 Gianofer Fields  29:46
 Perfect. Is there anything you want to tell me I didn't ask you?
 
 Immy Mali  29:49
 At the time I, the time that we installed it in Kampala, I walked away once my friend stepped in. I said 'Okay, you can go see the work, I'm gonna go away! [laughter]
 
 Gianofer Fields  30:04
 Because I'm sure it changes relationships, like you know ...
 
 Immy Mali  30:06
 Definitely it does. It definitely does and yeah, some of it would be something like, 'Guys, Immy had this! Come and see!' Like, I'm gonna go away from here!
 
 Gianofer Fields  30:17
 I'm gonna tell you right now Margaret's a good friend because she was not gonna rat you out. Margaret was like, 'No, I'm not reading.' She read one and then that was it. She's like, 'No, no, no, you're not catching me in that trick bag.' That was fun. Yeah.
 
 Margaret Nagawa  30:37
 I wonder why!
 
 Gianofer Fields  30:38
 We talked about what a good friend you were, because you were like, 'No, I'm not reading that. You get one out of me and that's it.'
 
 Gianofer Fields  30:52
 You've been listening to Meet Me at the Chazen. Our guest Immy Mali is a visual artist and creator of Virtually Mine, a sculpture currently on display in our exhibition entitled Insistent Presence: Contemporary African Art from the Chazen Collection at UW–Madison's Chazen Museum of Art. Meet Me at the Chazen is a production of the Chazen Museum of Art on the campus of UW–Madison in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information about the museum, its collections and exhibitions visit chazen.wisc.edu. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields; thank you for listening.