Insistent Presence: Nana Yaw Oduro

As a boy growing up, Ghanaian visual artist Nana Yaw Oduro knew his view of the world was different. "I used to ask myself, Why? Why me? Why? Why am I like strange? Why am I an artist? Because I don't think I chose it." He talks with host Gianofer Fields about how his life experiences have led to the recurring themes of identity, masculinity, and self-acceptance that show up in his work.

Meet Me at the Chazen is a podcast about the the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Chazen Museum of Art, the largest collecting museum in the Big Ten. As we report what’s happening here, we'll also explore what it means to be an art museum at a public university and how art museums can help enrich and strengthen the communities they serve. Meet Me at the Chazen theme and incidental music is “Swinging at the Pluto Lounge,” composed and performed by Marvin Tate and friends, and is used with permission of the artists.

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Transcript

 Gianofer Fields  00:04
 Meet Me at the Chazen. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. Nana Yaw Oduro is a Ghanaian visual artist who says that before he reached for a camera, he picked up a pen.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  00:17
 I generally feel like, before I was becoming this person, I think it's always a beginning to something, and the beginning for me was, was a lot of poetry, I actually grew up with just a mom. So I didn't really have that total masculinity energy in me growing up, so I grew up feeling like I lacked something.
 
 Gianofer Fields  00:44
 The foundation of his work is embracing his identity, and giving his viewers a visual representation of all the things that make Oduro, Oduro. His photographs are part of an exhibition entitled Insistent Presence: Contemporary African Art in the Chazen Collection. In spite of the title of the exhibition, Oduro was unable to travel to Madison. He is in Ghana, sitting in an outdoor café, surrounded by the sounds he captures in images.

  Nana Yaw Oduro  01:13
 At the moment, I'm here sitting by Sports, Mercy and Drunken Sports, where people come to chit-chat, to work, and then they catch up on their lives and all of that. And it's by a roadside, so that's why you're hearing the motorcycles and all of that.
 
 Gianofer Fields  01:29
 One of the things I've read about you, and I want to start off from what seems to, because I haven't met you, what I think is the starting point. And you're quoted saying, 'In every word, I tried to portray some actions that had physical relations to how I feel.' Talk to me about how you landed on that approach.
 
  Nana Yaw Oduro 01:54
 I realized that pictures are more visual to the people. If I add more poetic captions to the pictures, then I have my whole story. As a poem, I now have it as a picture. So I found more solace in that and I found more engagement. So I started as a model because I knew the energy I wanted to show in the images, then I would make my nephew to take pictures of me. So that's how it started. And that's the point I realized, okay, it's better maybe if I stay behind the camera, and direct somebody. So I realized people that would understand me more and not find what I'm doing weird is people who grew up with me or people who understand because I couldn't be behind the camera and also be before it, so how to choose one, to choose to be the just be the cameraman. And then someone who will be the subject. And I chose people closer to me, family of friends, because they are like closest people to me, like my closest substitute, whereas a commercial model is more like a stranger. And they don't, they didn't grow up with me, they don't know what, who I am, they probably, they may find what I'm doing funny or something. So I needed that kind of like consummate, I needed that kind of energy around, okay, this person knows me from childhood and knows if I'm weird, I think they've already accepted it, if I'm strange, by now. So I found solace in that and I chose to use people close to me. So with my art, I call it masculinity, self-acceptance. Boyhood, masculinity, self-acceptance, because obviously I'm a boy, when it comes to masculinity; I thought I I lacked a lot because I didn't have the training under like a male gaze or male umbrella, until I was like now, I was a bit of an adult, and self-acceptance, like you just have to accept however, whoever you come up with.
 
 Gianofer Fields  04:24
 it's really interesting that, because you talk about writing poetry to express yourself, which is so personal is so, it's like it's pen to paper. It's so personal. It's so raw. Yes. And then you move to, you move to photography, a little further away from that. And then you have someone stand in for you, which is a little bit further away from that. Yeah, did you get behind the camera and now you're directing people to interpret your, your feeling with you behind the camera, so it's almost It's like this push and pull, like, I want to bare my soul to you, but in a way that I'm not bearing all of it to you. And I want to control the images that you see when I'm baring my soul to you. Because when you put words to paper, it's up for anybody's interpretation. When you put art., I mean, when you make a photograph, it really is, it really does take that layer of the explanation that you can find in the word, it really pulls it back from that. So it's like, sharing yourself at a, like, you're still testing the waters to see if people are gonna think you're weird.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  05:42
 Good, good. Good, good, good, good, good, good.
 
 Gianofer Fields  05:45
 Am I close?
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  05:46
 Yes. Because yeah, I had to take a layer off to be more presentable.
 
 Gianofer Fields  05:52
 Wow!
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  05:55
 Because yeah, that's, that's, that's basically it, you actually just be like, You got it. Yeah. So at that point, I realized people don't really like to read. And I wasn't even willing to share my poetry because I felt in the moment it was too dark. So I created a very little blog, like on WordPress, and sharing with friends and sharing with other people that go closer to actually turn down their judgement of my personality. And then they were like, Oh, this is cool. So I kind of built a, like, some kind of confidence from there. And then I was like, okay, then let me just do this photographic thing I've been thinking about, because I think it's more visual. And I'll have colors and maybe people will, once the people around me think my writing is warm, then maybe the people outside will also see what I'm trying to communicate. So the poetry will be a photo and the caption, which, which both will be poetic. But right now I'm presenting a photo and a caption. So I think that is that. That was, that was the beginning.
 
 Gianofer Fields  07:11
 You talked about your poetry being dark. But when you look at the photographs, like the ones that we have, we have GASP, we have ALL THESE THINGS MY FATHER DOES, I'M CONVINCED HE DOES TO CONTROL ME, we have PHILIP on display, and then we have SOMEBODY TELLS ME, WHY EVERYTHING HAPPENS. And then HAPPY EID. So there's, the colors are so, there's a brightness to it even. Like, yeah, so is that color to balance out that darkness, is what I was wondering?

Nana Yaw Oduro  07:43
 Yeah yeah, because it's all about true story. Because HAPPY EID was, I'm Christian, so when HAPPY EID happened was during the festive season of the Muslims. And I was like, Okay, let me just create something that creates like some sort of celebration to other religions. So at least we're all people. And then no people don't, I don't I don't believe people choose their religion all the time, sometimes you just, you just inherit it. So I don't have a problem with different religions. And just let me create something that celebrates the other religion. So I know celebration, you just have some you know sweets and stuff. So I gathered a couple of friends and family and I was like HAPPY EID. For PHILIP, Philip is like, somebody I grew up to connect to connect with, because there was a move, he also moved from another city to my city. And then I found them interesting as somebody that could be a major subject to me, because it was easier connecting, and it was easier shooting this person. So I then shot that image, and Philip, because after telling me his story and where he came from, to seek greener pastures in Accra, I was like, because the image actually represents like struggle trying to take off your clothes in that kind of way. It's in the end, you're going to take off the clothes, but in the moment, it's just it's the image portrays the struggle of moving between like cities, so it's a struggle in the moment for him to find his foot in the new city where he is. So me capturing in that shot of him trying to take off the clothes, but having his head so in the clothes and his arms up portraying struggles, like him, in that moment of his life.

Gianofer Fields  09:40
 Nana, I have to say though, in that photograph, I also see your struggle. I mean ...
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  09:47
 Yeah. Yeah, that is why ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  09:49
 ... trying to have the right clothes and try not thinking you're weird and trying to you know, peel these layers back simultaneously, because he could also be putting shirt on, like trying to put on this masculinity, that you're trying to understand.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  10:06
 Perfectly. So I really appreciate the way you are following my statements. Because before I started, I was like, I connected with him, because we're obviously a lot of people around. But I chose this particular person because I felt that connection to his story, too. So it was easier for him to also be me. And also it was easier to get in. Because if we had the same, if we had a story that I could put into his, and his word fits perfectly, then yes, then we can make something. That picture being about him was also perfectly about that moment in my life. Because I was totally lost, and I was struggling, I didn't know what I was up to, because I think it was, I was done with uni, with university that time, and it was like somebody who wants to be something else, and life coming at you fast, you have to decide your future and stuff like all of that. I was struggling. So I had that in that moment, I realized no, this is this is perfect, because it just balances everything.
 
 Gianofer Fields  11:28
 This work, PHILIP, also can touch people at all ages. A child can see this and then understand the struggle, it is just for your little to try to get your own clothes on, you know, just to try to figure out and you don't have control over usually what you wear, at least I did, like I wore, my parents told me what to wear all of it. Like he struggles with things you just, you don't, you have some input in there, and you're the vehicle for this thing. This vehicle, that's your body.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  12:01
 I'm actually laughing because you're actually opening up more and more perspectives to the image. That is a beauty and point to art. Because it's not it's not closed, it's opened up to everybody. Look at it and feel it the way you feel it. So I'm actually very glad you're actually opening up more perspectives to this, this particular work.
 
 Gianofer Fields  12:24
 And I love the way you have these stark backgrounds and stuff. Because it's like, 'Look at me! See me as an individual! See what's going on here. Don't put me in some sort of like ideal of what you think my life and my surroundings is! This is who I am, this is what's going on.'
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  12:43
 Yes, exactly. Exactly. I, you're actually get the whole thing.
 
 Gianofer Fields  12:52
 Well, thank you, because I really enjoy the work. That's why it's such a, I really wish you could see how beautiful it is in the gallery.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  12:58
 I wish, I wish I was there, to be very honest.
 
 Gianofer Fields  13:03
 It just pops! And the thing, the piece, if we move on to ALL THESE THINGS MY FATHER DOES, I'M CONVINCED HE DOES TO CONTROL ME, really made me go and look back at some of our family photos. And there are so many photos that you can see that I'm much closer to, I grew up in a two-parent household and my parents were together until they both passed away. And I was  ...

Nana Yaw Oduro  13:27
 Oh, my condolences.
 
 Gianofer Fields  13:28
 Thank you. I was much closer to my father than I was to my mother because my mother, my father was the fun, and my mother was the disciplinarian. I burned the house down my father would be, my father would say, 'My baby she lit those matches all by herself! You see her burn that house down?'  He would tell his friends, he would tell his friends, 'This is my youngest child, Gianofer. She will try to whup the devil and I believe she could do it.' So like, he met me. And there are photos of me standing with him and I'm mimicking his exact posture.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  14:10
 Oh I really want to see that. That is very empowering. So you actually have this like feminine image and masculine energy at a young age.
 
 Gianofer Fields  14:21
 Yeah and I would say even more masculine than feminine sometimes.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  14:25
 That is very very, very empowering. And most people don't have that. I can feel it through the call, I can feel the energy to it. Like you, you're just you. You're just you and I really really really enjoy it.
 
 Gianofer Fields  14:41
 Thank you. I've also, it's, it's also, the work, like this work, it really connects on a level that's unexpected, because, I don't know how do I say it? We we're all of us, especially Black people, people of color, BIPOC people, we're almost Stockholm Syndrome. We have to conform so much to be part of, a part of the Western society. So when you see something from a, you know, all the lessons that you've learned, that these are the roots and these are the people you come from, and we're all one people, when you see something that connects so deeply with your soul, you can feel it, it's like you can feel it for the first time. And it's also a sadness to it, because it's like ...
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  15:32
 Good, good.
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:33
 I've noticed this whole time, but this is the until I go, this is the first time I can touch it, and actually see my family in these images.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  15:43
 Good, good. That is exactly the same, like something tragic happening to a stranger. Or you can see, all you can do is sympathize. But when it hits close to home and hits you, you realize you feel it. Now it's not, it's deeper than just sympathizing. Now it's happening to you. You actually understand this. So it's easier to connect and have this conversation with you.
 
 Gianofer Fields  16:08
 With the work, there's so many layers to it. Because yeah, ALL THESE THINGS MY FATHER DOES, I'M CONVINCED HE DOES TO CONTROL ME, sometimes that's a good thing. And sometimes that's a bad thing.

Nana Yaw Oduro  16:20
 It's bad, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, really appreciating this, like, you're, you're bringing out all the layers and possible perspectives to the work. That is it.
 
 Gianofer Fields  16:33
 It's the work, it's just your ability, if you can see the poetry in it, your ability to communicate, because one of the things with, that I find with memories, is that they could cut both ways. They can be you know, like the statement. But in memory, when you when you're in that space of memory, when you when you what do you call that that transformative state? When you're like in the memory? It's still through, it's through a different lens than in a different person than who you were at the time of the memory. So you can't change that. But you can't change that, you can't go back to that age.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  17:11
 Yes, yes. Yes, that's, that's true. That's actually very true. Actually very true.
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:18
 So then in the photograph, and you're working with, with your models, in putting them into positions, are you trying to change the memory? Are you trying to understand the memory?
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  17:30
 No, I'm trying to understand the memory. Like, in that moment, I am trying to express myself deeply and make it interesting, because sometimes it gets dark to the point you realize, okay, so who really, am I? Am I somebody I was thought to be, or am I myself? Or is there like a conflicting point? Is that like a conflicting moment in my life, where I'm trying to break away from what I'm taught, or what I actually what I actually am. So me stating I didn't really, like, I grew up, my father tried to, tried his best. I knew I had a father. I didn't. I didn't grow up in a home where my mom made it look like my dad wasn't present at all. No, my dad would come visit by here to go back. No, there was that kind of friction. So I wouldn't say okay, there wasn't a father figure at all. I knew I had a father and I knew his face. And I knew he was like, being the father paying bills. And I just didn't have him close, under the same roof, years would come, they would come and go. And me pursuing that, so that's growth, I grew up to be maybe a young adults, and then he had to come for me. So later, I think he gained custody of me. And then I lived with him with my stepmom. So I was in between a new era. So I thought a masculine figure, being in my life now teaching me how to be a man and also watching, like, taking steps and start watching his actions and stuff. I thought it was like a moment See, was something new, like a new whole new lecture to me, though it was indirect lecture was like a whole new lecture to me. So I had to I had to alter myself to also gradually progress into adopting, and adapting sort of masculinity to myself. So at that point, I realized okay, so are these things my father does? I'm convinced he does to control me. So I am convinced he's doing something to make me a man. But this though, I'm kind of like, holding on to who I am from my mother's side, and all of that, so all these, all these things my father does I'm convinced he does to control me, so I just tried to make the captions more explanatory sometimes. So any, somebody who understands what is really happening here.
 
 Gianofer Fields  20:25
 I also see some of that story in GASP, too, your idea of with trying to get to this layer of who I am, but still sort of underwater in that fluid, kind of nebulous place where, you know, when you're in water, you can only control your body so much until you learn the physicality of how to do so. And then, like, pushing through and breaking through, like the tip of the finger to just, there, just about to break it surface and get out.

Nana Yaw Oduro  21:03
 Just perfectly, perfectly. So that came at a moment where I, I wasn't, I think, tertiary school and then university I was outside, I was, I found myself in, in a moment where I had to choose. So there was those, obviously, there was the option, but there wasn't the option to choose. But I had to choose. Because I had to choose between choice and balance. You're in school, you're being you know, provided for, someone's taking care of your tuition and stuff. And then you are also following some kind of energy you don't fully understand, which isn't like totally accepted at that point in time, like this part of the world, or everywhere, because I think I'm generally it's difficult to accept, you have an artist, child, who just wants to be an artist, and would risk everything to be an artist. So gospels, when I have this community of creators, then like, community of boys, and we are just creating images, but we still have some things going on in our life, like studies in school. So me, being in the middle of making a choice was between my grades, like high performance in school, and also just taking pictures for movies, because there was absolutely no reason and there was absolutely, I wouldn't say there was like, a big direction or something. Nothing. It was just like a kid who realized, oh, I can do this, I can create funny, interesting images that make me seem weird to other people, but it was like, you know, it was interesting to me. It was unconventional. And then I was in high school, and then you know, my grades were just going down. And I wasn't, I was just being a bad student, like grade wise, but still, I found some solace with just creating. So in that moment, I was willing to give up school, or tertiary education for just some, some passion that I was feeling, some, some gratification, some, in some, some feeling of being a creator, backing something. So that was more important to me. And I found myself on the verge of just kicking school out and just being a creator. And there was no promise, there was nothing. I was just doing this out of passion, some burning desire and all of that.
 
 Gianofer Fields  23:55
 But that's everything, Nana, that's that nothing. Passionate, burning desire is everything.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  24:01
 Yeah, but imagine you have the passion and desire to focus on something then you have a whole family on your neck, and your own self-judgment, your own instincts telling you, you're failing in school, it's not going to go, you have exams today and you're in the bushes somewhere, creating an image you know, so what why is the image more important than your grades in school? You know, there was all of this conflict in the moment and I was like, wow, so whom do I listen to, my passion or this like self-judgment, instincts of wasting my parents resources and starting to thinking I'm actually performing in school while I was actually giving my all to art, all of that. So in the moment, all I could think of was like, GASP, Like I was gasping for air because I'm in between something, though I am fully aware of who I am. I'm still under, under some kind of net, some kind of thing where, I'm free, but I am free within me like you're an artist, and I want to show portray my art. But I also have this thing going on in my life. So it was it was just like a battle for me. So all I could think of is GASP.

Gianofer Fields  25:33
 There's a parallel in our lives, which is probably why this work speaks to me so much. Because even though I'm looking at this net, I've turned it into water. Okay, okay, I took it under in my head, it became water, staring right at it.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  25:48
 That is the beauty of art. And that is what I think of when I'm creative. I don't want you to see the image and think, 'Oh, I'm taken so literal, this is what he's talking about it. This is what it is.' No, it is at, you look at it. And then you relate it to your life and see why it's connected. That is why somebody can come from Europe, just see, oh, this is art. They just like buy it and then keep it in their room. And they always look at it for some reason. Sometimes they tell you the reason they bought the artwork, and all you can do is laugh and smile and be like, Yo, this is something because you didn't even think of what they are thinking when they saw your artwork. Yeah, so I really appreciate that you look at the work. And then it connects you to a point you can relate in a totally different kind of route from I was feeling in the moment. And that is the power of art.
 
 Gianofer Fields  26:47
 We can connect on emotions, but how expresses and shows up in our lives can be very different. Because like you, my parents were like, 'Art? What are you talking about art?' And I actually at one point left school, I was like, you know what, I don't need this school to do what I want to do. They're telling me what they want me to know. I don't care about what they want me to know, I need this piece of paper for whatever reason. And I was exposed to material culture. So I came back when I was ready to come back. And I was, and I knew what because I wanted to express myself, I didn't quite know how that would go.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  27:29
 That is that is actually very, very educated. Because you mentioned a statement that you really wanted to know who you were. And that's, that's, that's something that is that sounds too common to a lot of people, but it's so heavy to the point you, you, you have to you really have to figure out what you're here for.
 
 Gianofer Fields  27:49
 So then now let's move on to SOMEBODY TELLS ME, WHY EVERYTHING HAPPENS. Because it has a combination of, for me looking at it, and for the work that we have in our collection. it's the closest we see to one person with their face exposed looking bed at us. And then there's an element of the mesh that I see in a lot of your work. And also this bright coat. So let’s talk about SOMEBODY TELLS ME, WHY EVERYTHING HAPPENS.

Nana Yaw Oduro  28:22
 Okay, so with this one, it's very interesting, because I was on set shooting an image for, I was shooting some documentary or like a video for BET. And then I met this kid with a horse. And I was like, Yo, I just look at look at him. And he's whole appearance and I was like yo, this, this is a kid that lacks a lot of options in life. He doesn't really have to make choices, because he just has to wake up and do what he has to do to survive. There is no room for choices. And I met him and then it brought me back to like some things. I started thinking of myself as a kid I all I had to do was accept that yeah, I'm strange, I'm not like other kids. My interests are different. I won’t ever be seen as them. They will always see me as something else. So at some point, I had to realize you, this kid is just like me. And he's not different like me. And I approached him with conversation. I wanted to understand what was really happening when he started talking to me because it's a random day, and you expect every kid to be, like a weekday, you expect every kid to be in school, and this kid has a horse by the show. Yeah, like, there must be a story to this. So I approached him here he's talking to me and I realized, I am more connected to this guy than I think. But then he tells me so much about himself that I realize, maybe he even knows so much that I don't know.

And at some point, just looking at him, I realize you have to document distance. There's, there's an energy around that I need to document. And I just didn't have a second thought when that happened to me. I just had to take it, and me getting the gaze like he really looking into the camera with the whole, singlet, like noticing the thing on his head, like, all of these things came together in that moment. And I realized everything he told me about himself, about his come up, and all of that, was something that was so evident to his eyes and his face and his look and his gaze, in the image. So I had no choice, no option than to submit a title SOMEBODY TELLS ME, WHY EVERYTHING HAPPENS, because he made me realize things. Because I was struggling with it.

I used to ask myself, 'Why? Why me? Why? Why am I like strange? Why am I an artist?' Because I don't think I chose it. 'Why am I interested in some things? Unconventional? Why is my taste in everything like the odd way?' So he, he made me realize that things don't just happen. And then I had to accept in that moment. Somebody tells me why everything happens. So I realized, you could have been anything. You could have been anything, I could have been the kid from like, a well-functioning family, I could have been the kid, I could have been a doctor, I could have been anything. But the point of me being who I am now me, there's a reason why I am this, then I had to accept it. So I had no choice. I had no option. The moment that was a realization, then it just hits me looking at the image was like, Yeah, surely the story and the image, everything like I relate to this specific thing. So that was like the only thoughts in my head. SOMEBODY TELLS ME, WHY EVERYTHING HAPPENS.

Gianofer Fields  32:48
 So if I look at this image, and I hear you, I hear your story and talking about it, the mesh for me takes on a whole different meaning. It's like, it's like the mesh and GASP where it's semi-permeable, parts of your getting through. And the spaces in between it like as you get as you develop it become closer to who you are, and become comfortable expressing who you are. The mesh is a covering, but it's not like a blanket. Not everything they're saying or telling you is getting through to your heart, your this is conflict in between somebody telling you everything in you, and you becoming who you are. You're not completely covered by their words, but their words and their actions still have some effect on you.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  33:43
 Yeah, because in that moment, I saw him as like a life coach or a lecturer or something. I feel like, though I have been through some other things, he's also going through some other things, that maybe I had a better childhood compared to his. But why is he not me and why am I not him? And why are we not another kid who had like, the best health? So it's, it's just like a moment of me questioning myself. And then he provided an answer. Because I actually spoke to him. And he was very, like confident he was very satisfied with whatever was happening in life because he was a kid with the horse by the shore, but knew at this age, they were in school, his peers were in school and all of that, but this kid had grown to accept what was happening in his life in that moment. And that was like a teaching moment for me that all these questions I asked myself from birth into now, why am I here? Why am I strange to my peers? Why am I like this? He was answering that with that particular gaze and he was answering that with the questions and conversations I was having with him. So that was like a teaching moment to me and I accepted that. Yeah. Somebody's really telling me why everything happens.
 
 Gianofer Fields  35:05
 And then I think that's because you both have that shared experience of, you're supposed to be in school and not wanting to be in school. So you have this common, you have this foundation that you shared, getting a different perspective.
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  35:23
 Good. Good, because he was answering my questions from childhood. But I met somebody who finally has told me something comforting. So I have to accept what is happening in life like somebody's, somebody tells me why everything happens, because I'm always questioning, why is this happening to me? Why do they have to be me? You know, all of that.
 
 Gianofer Fields  35:24
 So then, as you, if you could just stand back and look at all your work, there are a couple of words that you that you keep falling back on. strange, weird, different, as you as you look at your work, and you process through this, do you feel less strange and less weird and less different? Have you made your peace with that?
 
 Nana Yaw Oduro  36:15
 Yeah, I've made my peace with that. And I've made that, the moment I made a peace with this was one I put it out. And people say stuff about it, people have like, something to see, like, this was created in a small place in Accra. And then you are here interviewing me now, meaning this is something, some sort of a message to it. So it's not something I was supposed to keep myself. So this, all of this means something to me as a creator. So it's like, oh, so it wasn't something I was supposed to keep to myself. After all. Once it's bringing other people to me to talk to me about it, too, by the way to also like, know why I'm doing it means it's not something so strange afterwards, like, 'cause I started and I wanted to put my energy out to also prove, okay, maybe they see me as strange. Maybe they see me as, like, some unconventional person. Or maybe I have a bridge to have something that I have a reason to show them or to prove to them why I am the I am the way I way am. And then people come in for the work, people find comfort, people finding like it's relatable and all of that means, hey, this is something this is really something that, I'm not just doing anything. This is something going on. So that was it. That was some kind of solace to me.
 
 Gianofer Fields  37:58
 You've been listening to Meet Me at the Chazen. Our guest, Nana Yaw Oduro, is a visual artist whose photographs are part of an exhibition entitled Insistent Presence: Contemporary African Art in the Chazen Collection at UW–Madison 's Chazen Museum of Art. Meet Me at the Chazen is a production of the Chazen Museum of Art on the campus of UW–Madison  in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information about the museum, its collections and exhibition, visit chazen.wisc.edu I'm your host Gianofer Fields. Thank you for listening.