The Archive: Should It Stay or Should It Go?

Host Gianofer Fields shows us the archival decision-making process as Registrar Andrea Selbig and Archivist Jordan Craig consider what to do with an array of items from the Chazen's past. "Stay or go" is just the first question among several that get asked. Listen in as the process unfolds in real time, as they consider anniversary banners, publication duplicates, and a vinyl record recorded in the Chazen's galleries.

Meet Me at the Chazen is a podcast about the the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Chazen Museum of Art, the largest collecting museum in the Big Ten. As we report what’s happening here, we'll also explore what it means to be an art museum at a public university and how art museums can help enrich and strengthen the communities they serve. Meet Me at the Chazen theme and incidental music is “Swinging at the Pluto Lounge,” composed and performed by Marvin Tate and friends, and is used with permission of the artists.

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Transcript

[This machine-generated transcript has been lightly edited.]

Gianofer Fields  00:02
 Meet Me at the Chazen. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields. In this episode, we will decide which of the items we found in several storage places throughout the Chazen will make the final cut and enter the official archive. Choices must be made, hard choices. So we asked the Chazen's registrar, Andrea Selbig for help.
 
 We went to the closet, is this all the stuff here on this table behind us? And you're saying no to that we picked out? So then, how ...
 
 Jordan Craig  00:43
 This was actually pretty easy.
 
 Gianofer Fields  00:45
 Okay, Jordan, so ...
 
 Jordan Craig  00:46
 It's down to what's duplicate and what's not, mostly, Because if you take a look at all these, I guess there's nothing on the spines, they're all Artscenes [publications] from 1985 to 1988. Well, these ones are 1985 to 1987. This ain't this range. And we already have all these digitized. I do have a question because we are keeping a physical copy. And I do tend to save my, "I'm not really sure what to do with this" for Andrea. So here's what we already had. We have Artscenes ...

Gianofer Fields  01:24
 ... and to be clear, this is a this is a gray file box like you would have like what are the what would you call, an office file paper box?
 
 Andrea Selbig  01:32
 It's an archival storage box.
 
 Gianofer Fields  01:35
 two one foot by two foot maybe one by one by one and a half.
 
 Jordan Craig  01:44
 Yeah, it is acid and lignin free, buffered materials. So this is specifically made for archives. It's manila folders. Right? Each one containing ... Yes, each one containing like a volume of the art scenes. But these are unbound, where in that closet that we were talking about with the dust, has these bound ones. And I'm not really sure which format we'd prefer. Especially now that they've been digitized. And we don't have any reason to unbind them, necessarily.
 
 Gianofer Fields  02:19
 I'm gonna say just for visuals. I like the bound versions. I do this is nice. Yeah.
 
 Andrea Selbig  02:28
 Is there one that's more archival? So bindings can break.
 
 Jordan Craig  02:33
 That's true.
 
 Andrea Selbig  02:35
  They're bigger, for storage purposes. Even though I think the bound book looks nice, and it's a nicer experience, but that wasn't the original presentation, either, so my, I'm leaning towards this is what was mailed, that this is what we should be saving, the originals. So it was mailed, this is what somebody would have received, they would have experienced it like this.
 
 Gianofer Fields  03:07
 Run me through then your criteria when you're making these decisions. Andrea, what sort of like what sort of the mechanisms that run through your head? And that may be big, because it's per thing and how each thing was created and went out. But what are those criteria as you go through?
 
 Andrea Selbig  03:23
 I need to preface this by, I am not a trained archivist. But Jordan is, so I would, you might have noticed my first question was to Jordan, which one of these more archival? And if she would have told me that the bound one was, I would have said then we go with that. No more criteria needed. But since they were sort of equal, I was trying to think of what is the purpose of an archive, and it is to preserve information and also maybe particular objects or assets. And my first thought was that the Artscene was meant to be ephemera. Basically, it was something that we sent out to our members. It was sent in the mail, it was, you know, a larger publication that's folded in half when it's sent. And I figure if that was the experience, and that's how it was designed, that in that format, is how it should be retained.

Gianofer Fields  04:23
 So then the consideration of space because while that bound book is again, it's big, it's like I'm gonna say 11 inches by 17, maybe 17, it seems like it's easier to store then, what was it a manila folder in a box? But it's, oh, I have answered my own question because then that's going to be exposed to air, that's going to be exposed to all kinds of stuff. This thing safer in this box and these manila folders.
 
 Andrea Selbig  04:56
 And these would probably have gone in a box as well. But we might have needed A new kind of a box yes to store that particular size.
 
 Jordan Craig  05:04
 Can I ask you a question?
 
 Gianofer Fields  05:04
 And shelves that are bigger and better, okay, okay.  somebody better talk sense because clearly I am not, which is kind of like a superpower.  Oh, yes, you whenever you ask me a question, it's like, she's gonna, she's gonna make me think about my wildness. Okay, you can yes, you can.
 
 Jordan Craig  05:29
 Yeah when you first saw this in the closet upstairs, your first instinct was we should repurpose it. Meaning you already like decided it doesn't have value, like in the archive. And I'm kind of wondering what your thought process was there?
 
 Gianofer Fields  05:43
 No, okay. Honestly, if I saw something like that, in my closet that have a little bit of dust on it with the outdated thing, it's like, what can I make into that? How can I make a new life for it? To me, because I'm not a ... but see, if that was tape. It's the thing. It's the thingness of the thing for me. If that was, if I looked in that closet, and it was a bunch of tapes, I would have been like, Give me all those tapes. I will take them and I will digitize them. And I will put them in my library. But see, for me, it's the thingness, I see fabric and I want to make something out of it. I see. And so if you and now that makes me think that this entire time I've been doing that with you. Like we got banners, let's turn them into something. The fact that they could be kept for anything from my mouth like they've done their thing. Let's make it into a shirt. Let's make it into a fascinator for Amy to wear. I'm gonna say that a million times because she said she would do another one I forget. But so yeah, so then that somehow my mind thinks so I yeah, I immediately started thinking, if it's somewhere stored away, and it's dusty, and nobody's looking at, that it needs to have a new life, rather than it's somewhere somewhere. It's somewhere in this closet because somebody kept it because it has an archival value. And it's just not gone through that process yet.
 
 Andrea Selbig  07:00
 Or someone didn't know what to do with it. So they stuck it in a closet.
 
 Gianofer Fields  07:03
 Yes, my life.
 
 Jordan Craig  07:06
 Archive as a noun.
 
 Gianofer Fields  07:07
 Archive as noun rather than a verb. That for her the archive is a is a verb, not a noun. And for me, I'm still getting there.
 
 Andrea Selbig  07:16
 I mean, when I look at this banner, I think someone didn't know what to do with it. So they stuck it in the closet. This is a banner with there was probably multiples they hung on the light posts outside. It's celebrating the 25th anniversary of the museum. I think we probably have a million other things that celebrated the 25th anniversary of the museum that to me this has no, I don't think we would need to keep this.
 
 Jordan Craig  07:48
 I agree.
 
 Gianofer Fields  07:49
 We could make something out of it! Oh, you made me think because I really do have to change the way I ...
 
 Jordan Craig  07:57
 Actually like banners for me, I prefer having photos of them, hung up in their original context. And that's enough. We don't need to keep those humongous banners specifically that you were talking about. You can't roll them out and put them anywhere anymore. So, do what you want with them.
 
 Gianofer Fields  08:16
 My birthday was in February, but you keep giving me gifts. That is exciting. And we've, they've gone through the process, they've been, so then we do have access to use these big batteries for something.
 
 Jordan Craig  08:29
 Yep. You can totally, you know, use them. No archival value to me.
 
 Gianofer Fields  08:34
 All right, so I'm about to I'm gonna I'm going to expose you, Andrea.
 
 Andrea Selbig  08:38
 Yes?
 
 Gianofer Fields  08:39
  Because it's what I do. I've seen the dress that you and Kate made.
 
 Andrea Selbig  08:45
 And Candy.
 
 Gianofer Fields  08:45
 ... and Candy made. You see those banners. Do you have another dress in you? Do you? Oh, wait, wait, wait. Jordan says hold on.
 
 Jordan Craig  08:54
 Do you realize they are like the color of like Barney the Dinosaur? Kind of. Oh, horrible.
 
 Andrea Selbig  09:05
 Interesting. If I could work on it during work time, maybe? Because it was a wonderful dress. It was a wonderful experience. But it took a lot of time. And stress. And you know, it was it was wonderful. And it felt worth it at the end. But in the process, it's a process. So I don't know. I'd want it to be a team. I wouldn't take that on myself. I don't know, maybe.
 
 Gianofer Fields  09:44
 So then you see these, we also have other plans like we I'm thinking fashion show. I'm thinking I've proposed it to Kristine that maybe they can be made into shade shades for the tables outside of the Chazen. So then they begin multi-use And everybody could enjoy them instead of just me having somebody make fun and crazy and laughing for 20 minutes and being over it. And so it's ...
 
 Jordan Craig  10:08
 It's like a good time whenever you make, so ...
 
 Andrea Selbig  10:17
 'Cause that's like a good thing for art students from the art department to get involved in.
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:21
 You know, that's what I think too.
 
 Andrea Selbig  10:22
 As collaborative thing. Or the design center.
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:29
 CDMC.
 
 Andrea Selbig  10:32
 SoHE [School of Human Ecology].
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:33
 Or I can just continue to browbeat people, and bug them and whine and complain until they just give up and like if I don't make this woman this thing, she will not shut up about it. Because I've got John [Berner], one of the preparators, interested in maybe doing something.
 
 Andrea Selbig  10:49
 Oh yeah, he's the actual fashion designer here. The man makes his own fan.
 
 Jordan Craig  10:54
 And shoes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  10:55
 What? It's nuts. Yes. It's, you just never know with people. This is so off topic. But one day, I was like, I've never seen those pants before, like, I've never seen that style. And I'm just like, sort of staring at him. And I realized that was creepy. And so then it's before I met him, I walked up to him. I said, 'I'm sorry, I've been staring at you. But where did you get those spaces?' 'Oh, I made these.' I was like, I knew there was something I had not seen before. So you can't be staring at people at work, like squinting at them and making faces because you're trying to figure some stuff out? My "I am trying to figure stuff out" face looks homicidal. Anyway. So now we've whittled it down from the boxes and boxes of stuff we saw on the cabinet. Jordan, you've got a few piles here on the table. So can we run through with your expert, I asked you to work together because you think you're not an archivist?
 
 Andrea Selbig  11:48
 Right. I am not, Jordan is.
 
 Gianofer Fields  11:50
 So then I want to see you guys work through something. You could pick anything on the table and talk a walk and just sort of let me be a fly on the wall while you discuss it. Okay, let's go with something, one of the cooler things that I thought we found.
 
 Andrea Selbig  12:06
 Okay. Yes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  12:07
 No no no, don't go apologize.
 
 Jordan Craig  12:09
  This is the first vinyl record that we have down here. I didn't know that we had it.
 
 Andrea Selbig  12:15
 I didn't either. Is this from Sunday Afternoon Live?
 
 Jordan Craig  12:21
 I'm a little unclear on but I do know that it was recorded here.
 
 Andrea Selbig  12:48
 So it doesn't say it. So I bet it's not part of that. But I wonder if ... I don't I'm just I'm just thinking that now like is it possible that this because this was started something sparked sparks an idea in someone and then maybe Sunday Afternoon Live started after that? I'm not sure.
 
 Jordan Craig  12:54
 When did Sunday Afternoon Live start? I'm going to have to look that up,.
 
 Gianofer Fields  13:08
 Yeah. So then how would you look that up? Would you just look for the date of Sunday Afternoon Live, Jordan?
 
 Jordan Craig  13:16
 It's complicated. I'd probably go through our like, education like programming records to see what we have related to Sunday Afternoon Live and just see what's the earliest. So ...
 
 Andrea Selbig  13:30
 Yeah, so I'm assuming this concert was, so it says Ludwig von Beethoven, it is a concerto. It was the Mirecourt Trio, Wisconsin Chamber Orchestra. And there is a, the album cover has a photograph of a painting in our collection on the cover. So I'm not exactly sure without knowing any information, I'm assuming that maybe the Beethoven concerto was written at the same period that this painting was created in, not sure. Or the same country, I again not sure. I'm curious. And then I'm curious why we decided to record it and make an album of it. You can see pictures on the inside of the album cover where they clearly recorded it in the Museum's galleries in what was our Brittingham gallery, that has all of the Renaissance and through 18th century paintings in there, which perhaps was used as inspiration for the musicians.
 
 Gianofer Fields  14:48
 I was trying to see, I was trying to see it's a painting on the cover is in the background. Is that it? I think so ‘cause look at this square shape in the boat.
 
 Andrea Selbig  15:00
 I don't think so because there's a strong diagonal here in the composition.
 
 Jordan Craig  15:08
 Is it this one?
 
 Gianofer Fields  15:10
 That's possible. Yeah, so they did it. They recorded it in this painting is in the background of the recording.
 
 Andrea Selbig  15:25
 On the cover: Sunrise, by Claude-Joseph Vernet. The painting was painted in 1759. Which, Beethoven wasn't born until 1770. So I'm not sure though, of course. I don't know why. Because it was hanging up in the gallery, maybe. But yes, this whole, this is the first I'd never knew this existed. This is curious.

Jordan Craig  15:56
 So I got a record player so we could play it.
 
 Gianofer Fields  16:00
 Jordan, I know it's unprofessional to say this, but I could not possibly love you more. I could not.
 
 Jordan Craig  16:09
 ... [inaudible] right now I'm digitizing archival video, hoping that Truman Lowe speaks on it.
 
 Gianofer Fields  16:20
 Oh, there's Truman Lowe right now.
 
 Andrea Selbig  16:21
 He wrote it in 18, the manuscript is lost, sketches can be traced back to 1803, 1804. So around, you know, the early 19th century was when this was written. I wonder why they would do this.
 
 Gianofer Fields  16:56
 Cuz it was cool. It was cool. Some things don't have a reason.
 
 Andrea Selbig  17:00
 I would just think it would be there was a connection to to something, but maybe not. Maybe it was just simply. Well, maybe it was all of this. "The artists and producers wish to thank the director and staff at the Elvehjem Museum of Art [the Chazen's predecessor] for allowing the use of Brittingham gallery five with its excellent acoustics and for permitting the reproduction of the Vernet painting." So it could just be it was somebody said, The acoustics are fabulous here, can we record? It could be as simple as that; we've, I do know that people have always commented on the acoustics of our galleries. And that might also have something to do with Sunday Afternoon Live.
 
 Gianofer Fields  17:38
 So how many of those factors make this worth keeping? Or do they? And I'm not I don't want to put you on the spot. Because one of the things too, that I have that I'm just very careful of because it's just how my brain works. Like, I don't want to pick something like yeah, that's trash. You know what I mean? Because I want to honor the work. I want to honor what went into it, you know, these people, the group was clearly taken aback. They said, so by the acoustics in the gallery. So then there's that sentiment to it. For me that would be difficult to overcome. Like, okay, you know what I mean? Like, I could see myself, if you said no tracking down those people in Munich, hey, that's ...
 
 Andrea Selbig  18:21
 Right. I mean, my first thought was, it probably has more value to the Wisconsin Chamber Orchestra and this trio. However, I do see why this could be valuable in our archive because it was recorded here there are pictures of our gallery. And of course, one of the artworks in our collection is on the cover. So I could see this absolutely being part of the archive.
 
 Jordan Craig  18:48
 That's why I pulled it out and kept it out. So
 
 Gianofer Fields  18:52
 I've just like kind of witnessed in real time something go from storage into now the archives.
 
 Jordan Craig  18:58
 Maybe sorta. We've decided to keep it, but we need to make a record that it exists so people can find it and decide where it's going to live and things like that.
 
 Gianofer Fields  19:09
 Okay, so then walk me through that process.
 
 Jordan Craig  19:15
  I'm not used to thinking out loud, with a microphone on ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  19:16
 Okay, here we go. Okay, Jordan, okay, here you hand it to her so like now save, hold on we're gonna have her say the magic words and then you're just gonna go to work. I'm not here I don't have this box. Okay, say the magic words.
 
 Andrea Selbig  19:28
 Hey, Jordan, we found this album in the closet and I really think it belongs in the archives. So if you could maybe catalog it and get it into our institutional archive, that would be great.
 
 Jordan Craig  19:44
 See, this is ... originally ...
 
 Gianofer Fields  19:52
 Because remember the one of the things I noticed that when we went to the cabinets, the first thing you did when you got down here you're like, Okay, I have to remember where I got this from. I remember which clause that I got it from. So you were already starting to sort of catalog it in some way or organize it, maybe it's a better way to say it.
 
 Jordan Craig  20:07
 Yeah, so like in archives, more generally, there's this concept of maintaining original order, or they call it respect des fondes. And that's keeping records in groups, according to where they came from. That doesn't necessarily literally mean like the closet. That was just a mental note for now. But it's more like the person who accumulated the records or the department. So, yes, this is all the museum stuff, but it's all like editorial, I guess, which seems pretty obvious from all of the Artscenes and things are in the closets with them. So I want to make sure that this stuff goes with the editorial things specifically and not like the education department stuff, or the exhibition records, because this isn't necessarily tied to any particular exhibition. So I couldn't put it in there. But I could see it going into  the publications and editorial records so that's where I would file it and add a note that it exists in that finding aid. As far as preservation, and access, it is the only vinyl record that we have down here now. So I borrowed a friend's record player, so this is not the Chazen's, I suppose we could get one if we really wanted to. But  if it's just, if it's just one we probably don't care enough. Mills Music Library has a copy of this that was one of the first things I looked up, like can we access this another way? I couldn't find an online version. But we could potentially access it through the libraries. so if we kept it probably wouldn't be like as a vinyl we probably don't care about the record itself that much. We'll probably digitize it. What's interesting is the cover for the reasons that Andrea mentioned, and it's gonna go in and acid- and lignin-free box for archival storage.

Gianofer Fields  22:13
 So you got to put this in the acid-free box, acid and lint-free box.
 
 Jordan Craig  22:18
 Lignin-free.
 
 Gianofer Fields  22:18
 Lignin what is that? Lignin lignin what is lignin?
 
 Andrea Selbig  22:23
 I don't know. It it's like ... It's something bad.
 
 Jordan Craig  22:30
 If you store archival records in like containers with acid and lignin like that's sort of what contributes to like paper browning and becoming brittle and things so we don't want that, it's chemical reaction stuff. So yes, yes, I'd have I'd have to look it up to give you a smart answer. I don't ... it was covered in grad school.
 
 Gianofer Fields  22:56
 It's like Fire Bad.
 
 Andrea Selbig  22:57
 I just know that I need to buy materials that are acid and lignin-free.
 
 Gianofer Fields  23:04
 So you're looking up lignin.
 
 Andrea Selbig  23:05
 Yes ... so far, it's a place in France.
 
 Gianofer Fields  23:11
 Okay, this box is free of places in France...
 
 Andrea Selbig  23:14
 Yes. It's all about the place in France, okay, I need to look up. Lignin is an organic substance found in wood pulp, as is paper, you know, has acids found in wood pulp as well. So wood in general is acidic and wood in general, is you don't want to store paper in anything that's wood or something made from paper products unless these elements are stripped out.
 
 Gianofer Fields  24:03
 Interesting, and everybody has a wood bookshelf in their house. Yes. So then, to be clear, Jordan, you'll go through you'll put all the information that's necessary from this, and in the likelihood that it actually makes it into the actual archive. It will be the image on the LP cover rather than the LP itself.
 
 Jordan Craig  24:28
 Maybe. I'd mean like the LP cover, like just the case, you know, what would we keep the LP but it's just like we can't listen to it unless we have a record player. So I don't think it's worth like doing anything special to preserve the vinyl specifically. If that makes sense.
 
 Gianofer Fields  24:51
 It does. So you keep it all intact. But the most thing the thing to most protect that be the cover itself is a case. Yeah, got it. Got it. That makes sense. So we just witnessed something that is on its way to being in the archive.
 
 Jordan Craig  25:03
 Yes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  25:05
 Okay. Whew!
 
 Jordan Craig  25:07
 It's this decision-making process has to happen first, because otherwise, it's way too overwhelming to try to, like, create a finding aid for everything.
 
 Gianofer Fields  25:17
 So then when you create the finding aid, which is how this will, how the information will be accessed? What are some of the keywords that you use? Will you do that? Because I think one of the things that is sometimes confusing for me, unless I know exactly what something is called, I don't know how to search it. I couldn't find it. If that makes any sense. Does it make any sense?
 
 Jordan Craig  25:38
 Yeah. But I feel like you already sort of think in the way that I do. But maybe like for the podcast instead of for archiving things. It's like who, what, when, where, why? How? Just answering those questions.
 
 Gianofer Fields  25:53
 as somebody who doesn't know that's there, how would I even begin that search? What I look for, chamber music in the galleries?
 
 Jordan Craig  26:01
 Possibly, yeah.
 
 Andrea Selbig  26:04
 Would you use, well, not necessarily in a finding aid, but if it were to be incorporated into a catalogue, per se? Would you use keywords? For this kind of thing? And what would that be? Part of how people might stumble upon it?
 
 Jordan Craig  26:24
 Potentially, yes. I mean, there are lots of keywords just in, you know, recording what's or transcribing, I should say, what's on the case, we have that it's looping, we have that it's Beethoven, we have the title, we have the performers. So if you looked up chamber orchestra, or although you wouldn't get music, if you like, keywords searched the transcription here. So we'd probably add like music related terms to make it more accessible. And probably also like that, it was recorded in Gallery Five and things like that.
 
 Gianofer Fields  27:02
 So then you would be adding in, and again, I have to get this out of my head, you would not limit yourself to, I can only put three words in here that may, you're going to try to put as many keywords that people can clue on as possible.
 
 Jordan Craig  27:16
 Um, possibly, yes.
 
 Gianofer Fields  27:18
 So I could look up maybe music in the gallery, or recorded music in the gallery, or Beethoven, or if I knew, like Wisconsin Chamber Orchestra in J. Like, I could use old things. And much like when you google chicken salad in Google, you'll get you know, like, you looked up the word you got the place for what's what was it, loose?
 
 Andrea Selbig  27:40
 Well, it turns out I spelled it wrong, -non, with an O, but it's lignin? Well, so it's probably not a place. Lignon is a place in France. But lignin might not be.
 
 Gianofer Fields  27:50
 Well, we got to the wood pulp thing. But when you look up lignin you could get like, who knows how many terms before you actually get like you need to put in maybe chemical reaction or maybe, you know, lignin and storing paper.
 
 Andrea Selbig  28:02
 I wrote lignin archive, and it got me what I needed.
 
 Jordan Craig  28:10
 Is there a question? I'm trying to think of the question. Um, so then, maybe in turning the archive, from a noun to a verb, in searching it, I need to get it out of my head that I have to speak the language of the archive to find something. Because it's what I'm basically searching for, if I'm gonna have to go into my material culture brain, and then it's the thingness of a thing, I need to describe the thing in my search, I need to be able to, I need to find the words that sort of get me in the area of it. So if I'm looking for indigenous sculpture, if I'm looking for something that happened on a day, maybe I look up, Chazen calendar, events 1972, September, and maybe I will have some luck and finding something, am I close, is that what could happen?
 
 Andrea Selbig  29:06
 I don't even need that many, you could probably just start with Chazen, 1972 events, potentially. And you might get more to search through. You know, you're casting a wider net, but you'll get there. You know, I mean, I feel like the way that we search on the internet is the same way really, that you might search for anything if you're looking at a finding aid and or if you're online and library catalog. It's searching the entire document just for a term.
 
 Gianofer Fields  29:48
 You've been listening to Meet Me at the Chazen. Andrea Selbig is the registrar and Jordan Craig is the archivist at UW–Madison's Chazen Museum of Art. Meet Me at the Chazen is a production of the Chazen Museum of Art on the campus of UW–Madison in Madison, Wisconsin. for more information about the museum, its collections, and exhibitions, visit chazen.wisc.edu. If you'd like to follow us on Instagram we can be found at @meetme.chazen. Thanks for listening. I'm your host, Gianofer Fields.